Non-Believer Posted December 23, 2019 Share Posted December 23, 2019 Just now, RIchard Britten said: Because they might not always be allies. Can't see us declaring war on the US or Germany in the foreseeable future though? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RIchard Britten Posted December 23, 2019 Share Posted December 23, 2019 Just now, Non-Believer said: Can't see us declaring war on the US or Germany in the foreseeable future though? But I can see the US throwing down against another nation which we say "no thanks" to getting involved in. The support of the US will only continue as long as we dance to their tune. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Non-Believer Posted December 23, 2019 Share Posted December 23, 2019 He who pays the piper calls the tune. But after Iraq I think there'd be a great reluctance to get dragged into anything on the US coat tails. In the meantime I'd personally rather see our dwindling forces at least well equipped with the best, most reliable kit that's available and affordable. Which makes economic sense and does the taxpayer a favour at the same time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the stinking enigma Posted December 23, 2019 Share Posted December 23, 2019 Not sure the F-35 could be classed in that category. Expensive though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
manxman1980 Posted December 23, 2019 Share Posted December 23, 2019 20 hours ago, Manximus Aururaneus said: If the IOM where to be in the EU (As you claim) - Protocol would not need to exist - agreed? Agreed. I never said it was in the EU. I said it had a relationship via Protocol 3. 20 hours ago, Manximus Aururaneus said: Tell me why IOM needs Protocol 3 at all? Tell me why IOM does not comply, and therefore needs Protocol 3 to exist? Because the Island is not a member of the EU in it's own right but via the UK's membership and Protocol 3 can provide services (normally financial services). Some residents also benefit from Freedom of Movement. Do you really need all this explaining to you? 20 hours ago, Manximus Aururaneus said: If you (IOM) are so in love with the EU - Why will you not fully commit? Why is there a need for Protocol 3 in the first place? It's not my decision. I also don't believe that Tynwald would have the power to apply for membership. Nor do I believe that the Island would fulfill the membership criteria. Why are you investing in the North West of England and not the Isle of Man? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
P.K. Posted December 23, 2019 Share Posted December 23, 2019 4 hours ago, Non-Believer said: As long as they're allies within the NATO umbrella why should that be a problem? Operationally it's far better to be equipped with reliable, proven equipment than some piece of Heath-Robinson shite cobbled together in a British shed at huge waste of money in the name of national pride. Especially when lives are on the line. How many lives were squandered in Iraq while the MOD pretended that Land Rovers could be made IED-proof? Before they bought Mastiffs and Ridgebacks off the shelf? Firstly beefed-up Landys were never going to be IED proof. Just like the Humvee. But the APC in action at the time was the Warrior, a proper beast of a thing. A Warrior driver called Johnson Beharry won the VC by driving one full of wounded that was shot to shit with multiple RPG hits back to Cimic House even though he could barely see. A very tough bit of kit. Secondly the M16 also received a bad press. But the current SA80 is apparently the dogs. Although you should always be mindful that your personal weapon was probably made by the lowest bidder.... Some things are considered "strategic" for obvious reasons such as food production and defense weaponry. You hive off those items at your peril.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Non-Believer Posted December 23, 2019 Share Posted December 23, 2019 45 minutes ago, P.K. said: Firstly beefed-up Landys were never going to be IED proof. Just like the Humvee. But the APC in action at the time was the Warrior, a proper beast of a thing. A Warrior driver called Johnson Beharry won the VC by driving one full of wounded that was shot to shit with multiple RPG hits back to Cimic House even though he could barely see. A very tough bit of kit. Secondly the M16 also received a bad press. But the current SA80 is apparently the dogs. Although you should always be mindful that your personal weapon was probably made by the lowest bidder.... Some things are considered "strategic" for obvious reasons such as food production and defense weaponry. You hive off those items at your peril.... I'm well "au fait" with Warrior . But Warrior is no good for city street patrol work or "snatch" operations. But neither was Land Rover suitable, taken away from the streets of Northern Ireland. Far too late somebody saw the light and bought off the peg suitable replacements. But only after they'd spent millions trying to make the Rover ied resistant, despite being told it was a waste of time. For our size of military/armed forces, off the shelf, proven solutions are always going to be the best bet. We're fast rescinding our independent global superpower status. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rog Posted December 23, 2019 Share Posted December 23, 2019 41 minutes ago, Non-Believer said: I'm well "au fait" with Warrior . But Warrior is no good for city street patrol work or "snatch" operations. But neither was Land Rover suitable, taken away from the streets of Northern Ireland. Far too late somebody saw the light and bought off the peg suitable replacements. But only after they'd spent millions trying to make the Rover ied resistant, despite being told it was a waste of time. For our size of military/armed forces, off the shelf, proven solutions are always going to be the best bet. We're fast rescinding our independent global superpower status. The UK ceased to be a superpower many decades ago. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
display name Posted December 23, 2019 Share Posted December 23, 2019 On 12/21/2019 at 4:43 PM, Max Power said: So, here we are taking back control and one of the first acts after the election, selling off a major British company to Trump's USA. When they take those 10,000 jobs to the states, along with all of the sensitive technology, we will be another step closer to being a nobody in the industrial world! https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-50874181?SThisFB&fbclid=IwAR3tJ5uEgCfsvnG-hKreNPWWMwVMzXyUmksivUtJIy0YrndbCY40g2diLNE No different to Cobham buying up American and Belgian companies in the not too distant past. It's just the family whinging they can't bleed more out of it and the press pandering to the hard of thinking. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RIchard Britten Posted December 24, 2019 Share Posted December 24, 2019 14 hours ago, Non-Believer said: We're fast rescinding our independent global superpower status. "We" were a "super power" when we had an empire. "We" are a tiny island with ideas above our station, pushing around other countries because we hide in the shadow of the US and have a nuke (that we can't fire because it doesnt work). We need to get past this idea of being part of the world police (i.e. Team America) and start looking at why we waste so much money on "defence". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
quilp Posted December 24, 2019 Share Posted December 24, 2019 Flipping floppers Richard! It's xmas eve man! Go buy a turkey and get stuffed hey... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RIchard Britten Posted December 24, 2019 Share Posted December 24, 2019 25 minutes ago, quilp said: Flipping floppers Richard! It's xmas eve man! Go buy a turkey and get stuffed hey... Watching out the clock at work. Also, failure to prepare that man...turkey was bought on Saturday. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Non-Believer Posted December 24, 2019 Share Posted December 24, 2019 1 hour ago, RIchard Britten said: We need to get past this idea of being part of the world police (i.e. Team America) and start looking at why we waste so much money on "defence". Hence my debate about being better served by purchasing available, proven off the peg equipment. Having said that, Britain's armed forces strength lies in the people in it more than the equipment, in many instances. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rog Posted December 24, 2019 Share Posted December 24, 2019 6 minutes ago, Non-Believer said: Hence my debate about being better served by purchasing available, proven off the peg equipment. Having said that, Britain's armed forces strength lies in the people in it more than the equipment, in many instances. Britain's armed forces should have their role changed to becoming an armed defence force especially around our borders and not supporting US adventures in killing people far away from the US. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RIchard Britten Posted December 24, 2019 Share Posted December 24, 2019 Just now, Non-Believer said: Hence my debate about being better served by purchasing available, proven off the peg equipment. Having said that, Britain's armed forces strength lies in the people in it more than the equipment, in many instances. Thing is, we shouldn't need to project our "force strength" overseas. We wasted billions in unjust and immoral Middle Eastern "conflicts" (that are still basically going to this day) and lost countless lives, for what? The respective governments have created an almost unending market for the arms industries (including ours which is selling arms to all sides these days) in terms of "need" for equipment and young peoples lives to throw into the meat grinder. Defence spending has doubled since 2000 (£25B to £50B approx), yet staffing levels, retention and recruitment are at all time lows, so the money isnt being spent on personnel. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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