Customs borders and the island

[mojomonkey]

9 hours ago, Manximus Aururaneus said:

I have no problem with you requiring Rog to stick to the subject - presumably therefore, you will have no problem with me requesting that you do the same thing?

The thread title is at the top of the page.

Ok, fair comment, I can see that the thread is being a bit derailed.

 

I think the customs and borders impact on the Island will be pretty limited, even if it does significantly change the actual numbers coming and going would not be delayed that much by additional passport control. Overall, at a more general level, I do not think that the average UK citizen will experience any real change when leaving the country. They need a passport now and will need a passport then. Going on your holidays is not a freedom of movement issue.

 

I think that there is likely to be a significant impact from Brexit on the finance and e-gambling sectors. The UK is going to be affected and there are always ripples onto the IoM. Only time will tell how big that actual impact is.

 

I can see no reason why the IoM should (or want) to join the UK. 

[manxman1980]

15 hours ago, ballaughbiker said:

How? It's not in Schengen.

I travel through DUB regularly from the EU and there is always a passport check. Always.....

Rog's point is described badly but what he means is that Eire will remain the EU and EU nationals will retain the right to live and work there.  

So in theory an EU national enters Eire via the normal route and had their passport or National Identity card checked on arrival. 

They have now entered the CTA and there would be no checks if they they boarded a flight or ferry to the Isle of Man or UK. 

That EU national.can now "disappear" into the UK.

The EU Settlement scheme which is currently open does not result in any Visa or mark in the passport.  Instead it is a digital verification which requires the person to provide a check code which an employer or landlord can then verify online.

So I agree with Rog the CTA would appear to create a weakness in the UK Border.  For many that will be viewed as a major issue.

However, if people concerns are about immigration, well you haven't seen anything yet.

The Tory party manifesto quietly dropped the caps on migration that they have had for several years.

Countries like China and India are likely to demand easier access to visas for their nationals as part of trade deals.

The new points based system has not been announced yet.  It does however seem likely that they will include exemptions for skill shortage areas and the salary requirement will also be removed or significantly lowered from the current £30k.

Overall it may mean that migration increases not decreases, depending on whether the UK remains an attractive destination. 

The problems with illegal immigration will not go away.  You will still have overstayed and people smugglers.

[Manximus Aururaneus]

1 hour ago, manxman1980 said:

Rog's point is described badly but what he means is that Eire will remain the EU and EU nationals will retain the right to live and work there.  

So in theory an EU national enters Eire via the normal route and had their passport or National Identity card checked on arrival. 

They have now entered the CTA and there would be no checks if they they boarded a flight or ferry to the Isle of Man or UK. 

That EU national.can now "disappear" into the UK.

The EU Settlement scheme which is currently open does not result in any Visa or mark in the passport.  Instead it is a digital verification which requires the person to provide a check code which an employer or landlord can then verify online.

So I agree with Rog the CTA would appear to create a weakness in the UK Border.  For many that will be viewed as a major issue.

However, if people concerns are about immigration, well you haven't seen anything yet.

The Tory party manifesto quietly dropped the caps on migration that they have had for several years.

Countries like China and India are likely to demand easier access to visas for their nationals as part of trade deals.

The new points based system has not been announced yet.  It does however seem likely that they will include exemptions for skill shortage areas and the salary requirement will also be removed or significantly lowered from the current £30k.

Overall it may mean that migration increases not decreases, depending on whether the UK remains an attractive destination. 

The problems with illegal immigration will not go away.  You will still have overstayed and people smugglers.

And this is exactly how one of the biggest myths (lies) of the Brexit debate is about to be exposed.

People like me (personally) and the Tory party in general who have been accused of being nationalist, racist, and anti-immigration (any idea how much that hurts when it is not true?) are now going to warmly welcome Chinese, Indians and the rest in a system of controlled immigration so completely confounding our accusers.

I have never been racist, nationalist, or anti-immigrant - I have been against uncontrolled, economic migration whether the individual concerned added anything to the country or not and I am relishing the chance to demonstrate such against my accusers when the new system is in place.

If they are a positive addition to the country, let them in, and welcome them with open arms. (Oh it feels good to say that and now, at last, be able to demonstrate it).

[manxman1980]

12 minutes ago, Manximus Aururaneus said:

And this is exactly how one of the biggest myths (lies) of the Brexit debate is about to be exposed.

People like me (personally) and the Tory party in general who have been accused of being nationalist, racist, and anti-immigration (any idea how much that hurts when it is not true?) are now going to warmly welcome Chinese, Indians and the rest in a system of controlled immigration so completely confounding our accusers.

I have never been racist, nationalist, or anti-immigrant - I have been against uncontrolled, economic migration whether or not to individual concerned added anything to the country or not and I am relishing the chance to demonstrate such against my accusers when the new system is in place.

If they are a positive addition to the country, let them in, and welcome them with open arms. (Oh it feels good to say that and now, at last, be able to demonstrate it).

There are plenty of people who will not be happy with uncapped immigration and more people from different cultures.

We have said all along that not everyone who voted brexit is racist but that all racists will have voted for Brexit.

See for reference the "breaking point" poster.

[ballaughbiker]

Quote

And this is exactly how one of the biggest myths (lies) of the Brexit debate is about to be exposed.

People like me (personally) and the Tory party in general who have been accused of being nationalist, racist, and anti-immigration (any idea how much that hurts when it is not true?) are now going to warmly welcome Chinese, Indians and the rest in a system of controlled immigration so completely confounding our accusers.

I have never been racist, nationalist, or anti-immigrant - I have been against uncontrolled, economic migration whether the individual concerned added anything to the country or not and I am relishing the chance to demonstrate such against my accusers when the new system is in place.

If they are a positive addition to the country, let them in, and welcome them with open arms. (Oh it feels good to say that and now, at last, be able to demonstrate it).

Generalisations by their very nature can be fallacious to some degree. That's bound to happen and some innocent people are bound to be inappropriately labelled as a result. I wouldn't like being inappropriately labelled so I can understand your particular disdain.

That said, brexit was generally (yep that again) only about immigration. If we are honest, it is only 'uncontrolled' in the British Isles because we are soft. Soft for having no coherent ID system. Soft for not knowing when visitors turned into residents, soft for not knowing where visitors end up, soft for having near uncontrolled access to public services, soft for doing nothing about illegal activity when it was discovered etc etc.

Now many of those that promoted brexit tapped into the belief promoted by the gutter press over 30 years, that UK immigration was uncontrolled because the UK were being forced into it by a foreign power. This fails detailed analysis for numerous reasons but it is a very easy reductionist story to sell and is readily believed.

Even our joke shop PM suggested that EU migrants who had married, worked, paid all their dues and contributed greatly were somehow having something over on us so please don't make out the Torys are entirely innocent. 

 

[ballaughbiker]

Quote

If they are a positive addition to the country, let them in, and welcome them with open arms. (Oh it feels good to say that and now, at last, be able to demonstrate it).

I really wish that sentiment was valid for all the 17.4m......

[Manximus Aururaneus]

26 minutes ago, ballaughbiker said:

Generalisations by their very nature can be fallacious to some degree. That's bound to happen and some innocent people are bound to be inappropriately labelled as a result. I wouldn't like being inappropriately labelled so I can understand your particular disdain.

That said, brexit was generally (yep that again) only about immigration. If we are honest, it is only 'uncontrolled' in the British Isles because we are soft. Soft for having no coherent ID system. Soft for not knowing when visitors turned into residents, soft for not knowing where visitors end up, soft for having near uncontrolled access to public services, soft for doing nothing about illegal activity when it was discovered etc etc.

Now many of those that promoted brexit tapped into the belief promoted by the gutter press over 30 years, that UK immigration was uncontrolled because the UK were being forced into it by a foreign power. This fails detailed analysis for numerous reasons but it is a very easy reductionist story to sell and is readily believed.

Even our joke shop PM suggested that EU migrants who had married, worked, paid all their dues and contributed greatly were somehow having something over on us so please don't make out the Torys are entirely innocent. 

 

I am a Brexiteer (shock, horror) - It is impossible to put an exact figure on such a thing, but I can say that immigration was 'much, much less than 10%' of the issue to me personally.

In the early days (2015/16) I tried, mostly in vain, to explain why I wanted to leave the EU - Each time I tried to do so, I was shouted down so much, with others (remainers) telling me what my real motives actually were (they were completely wrong about my motives, but it didn't stop them telling me that they knew my motives better than I knew them myself) - So in the end I simply stopped trying to explain. Now I am left with the attitude that I don't care about what they think of Brexit because they did not care to listen to my genuine motives. Sad, very sad.

[P.K.]

3 hours ago, Manximus Aururaneus said:

And this is exactly how one of the biggest myths (lies) of the Brexit debate is about to be exposed.

People like me (personally) and the Tory party in general who have been accused of being nationalist, racist, and anti-immigration (any idea how much that hurts when it is not true?) are now going to warmly welcome Chinese, Indians and the rest in a system of controlled immigration so completely confounding our accusers.

I have never been racist, nationalist, or anti-immigrant - I have been against uncontrolled, economic migration whether the individual concerned added anything to the country or not and I am relishing the chance to demonstrate such against my accusers when the new system is in place.

If they are a positive addition to the country, let them in, and welcome them with open arms. (Oh it feels good to say that and now, at last, be able to demonstrate it).

A brexiteer talking about exposing lies....

Now THAT'S funny!

IMHO Roger has wasted so much bandwidth playing petty semantics already.

This tory party that has been accused of being anti-immigration. That wouldn't be the same tory party that instigated a "hostile environment" against immigrants to encourage them to leave that led to the Windrush scandal would it?

You know what, I believe it is.

Dear me, fell at the first hurdle....

[Manximus Aururaneus]

1 minute ago, P.K. said:

A brexiteer talking about exposing lies....

Now THAT'S funny!

IMHO Roger has wasted so much bandwidth playing petty semantics already.

This tory party that has been accused of being anti-immigration. That wouldn't be the same tory party that instigated a "hostile environment" against immigrants to encourage them to leave that led to the Windrush scandal would it?

You know what, I believe it is.

Dear me, fell at the first hurdle....

Funnily enough, I posted my answer to your post before you had even posted. You are the perfect example! You (claim to) know my mind better than I know it myself ....................

"Each time I tried to do so, I was shouted down so much, with others (remainers) telling me what my real motives actually were (they were completely wrong about my motives, but it didn't stop them telling me that they knew my motives better than I knew them myself)".

[P.K.]

1 minute ago, Manximus Aururaneus said:

Funnily enough, I posted my answer to your post before you had even posted. You are the perfect example! You (claim to) know my mind better than I know it myself ....................

"Each time I tried to do so, I was shouted down so much, with others (remainers) telling me what my real motives actually were (they were completely wrong about my motives, but it didn't stop them telling me that they knew my motives better than I knew them myself)".

So deny that it was tory policy towards immigration that led to the quite appalling Windrush scandal.

Go on, off you go...

[Manximus Aururaneus]

15 minutes ago, P.K. said:

So deny that it was tory policy towards immigration that led to the quite appalling Windrush scandal.

Go on, off you go...

P.K. You can shout and scream, attempt to change the subject, and issue all the demands of me that you like. It isn't going to change the result, the Withdrawal agreement is physically onboard Eurostar en-route for counter-signature by UKHMG as we speak.

You keep on issuing big 'To-do' lists to me as if I'm going to spend a lifetime in internet research to satisfy you or justify Brexit to you - that would be a road leading only disappointment I'm afraid, I'm not at your beck and call.

Perhaps you should grant yourself some quiet reflection time to work out just how you could have mis-read the situation so badly. Denial, anger, sadness...... You know the phases, blame me if that makes you feel better. I hope that you start to mend sooner rather than later.

[ballaughbiker]

"Go home" vans anyone?   lest we forget...

[ballaughbiker]

Quote

In the early days (2015/16) I tried, mostly in vain, to explain why I wanted to leave the EU - Each time I tried to do so, I was shouted down so much, with others (remainers) telling me what my real motives actually were (they were completely wrong about my motives, but it didn't stop them telling me that they knew my motives better than I knew them myself) - So in the end I simply stopped trying to explain. Now I am left with the attitude that I don't care about what they think of Brexit because they did not care to listen to my genuine motives. Sad, very sad.

Fair enough if that is entirely accurate.

 

Quote

Perhaps you should grant yourself some quiet reflection time to work out just how you could have mis-read the situation so badly. Denial, anger, sadness...... You know the phases, blame me if that makes you feel better. I hope that you start to mend sooner rather than later.

Question is how many millions do you think "misread the situation"?  (note that situation in this context is largely undefined)

[Manximus Aururaneus]

23 minutes ago, ballaughbiker said:

Fair enough if that is entirely accurate.

 

Question is how many millions do you think "misread the situation"?  (note that situation in this context is largely undefined)

It would be ridiculous to suggest that there are no racists or nationalists in the Tory party. It would also be ridiculous to suggest that some fascists, EDL, EBF nutters did not jump on the Brexit bandwagon. The same can be said of anti-semites, communists and the extreme left with the Labour party. All that you can do is try to uncover them and boot them out (on both sides).

So by 'misread the situation' - I mean the idea that by trying to tar all Tories or all leavers with the ultra-right wing, nationalist, racist, etc. etc. brush would work as a political ploy and persuade the UK electorate to vote against Brexit - it did not work (self evident). The electorate really are not represented by the daily extreme bleatings on social media (thank goodness).

Take post WW2 UK political history and it is hard to argue against the fact that the UK electorate majority aligns itself somewhere in the region of Labour right (Blair) at one end of the scale and Thatcher at the other end. The UK political pendulum seems to be pretty firmly rooted in that region with (I am glad to say) little chance of them voting for anything further left or further right than that (quite narrow) band.

Scare tactics, thankfully, do not persuade the UK electorate.

[P.K.]

1 hour ago, Manximus Aururaneus said:

P.K. You can shout and scream, attempt to change the subject, and issue all the demands of me that you like. It isn't going to change the result, the Withdrawal agreement is physically onboard Eurostar en-route for counter-signature by UKHMG as we speak.

You keep on issuing big 'To-do' lists to me as if I'm going to spend a lifetime in internet research to satisfy you or justify Brexit to you - that would be a road leading only disappointment I'm afraid, I'm not at your beck and call.

Perhaps you should grant yourself some quiet reflection time to work out just how you could have mis-read the situation so badly. Denial, anger, sadness...... You know the phases, blame me if that makes you feel better. I hope that you start to mend sooner rather than later.

I'm not changing the subject at all. That would be you.

It's not a big "to do" list at all. You claim your tory party isn't anti-immigration. I have simply pointed out a national scandal that demonstrates just how awful they really are. If you were totally unaware of the Windrush scandal then fair enough.

If you did know about it, (face it, you must have done) then you are in such complete denial that you even lie about your wonderful tory party on here.

Not my problem....