manxman1980 Posted January 27, 2020 Share Posted January 27, 2020 I visited Auschwitz-Birkenau whilst in Poland on holiday and found it to be a very eerie place. On my visit the sun was shining and the place was so calm and quiet but it was not hard to imagine just how atrocious conditions must have been. I found it a difficult place to visit but felt that I had to go. I had to understand what had happened and learn about the stories of the people who were killed or imprisoned in the camps. Like many others I hope that the world, or Europe at least, has learned from discovering the true nature of the concentration camps and the hatred that lead to their creation. I have been very impressed with the survivors who have returned to Auschwitz-Birkenau today. I am sure it cannot have been easy but equally the strength shown by the survivors making comments such as "I had to come to prove that Hitler did not win", or "I know I can just walk out of the gate this time" is remarkable. I was listening to LBC today and some of the stories of the survivors and their descendants. In particular this woman is amazing; https://www.lbc.co.uk/radio/presenters/james-obrien/listeners-brand-this-the-greatest-ever-call/ We must find a way to keep alive the memory of the atrocities committed in camps such as Auschwitz-Birkenau. We must do our best to prevent a repeat whether that be against Jews, Gypsies or any other group. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
war baby Posted January 27, 2020 Share Posted January 27, 2020 Manxman 1980: I totally endorse your remarks. It is vital that the horror of the death camps is never forgotten. I have not been myself, but when I was about 12, I met a quite young woman who had survived one of them, sadly I forget which. What I will never ever forget is the sight of the number tattooed on her wrist. It is little wonder that those of my generation grew up in an atmosphere of hatred of Germans all things German. Of course, this attitude no longer applies, but the reasons for it must never be forgotten lest they be repeated. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chinahand Posted January 27, 2020 Share Posted January 27, 2020 Very strongly agree with Manxman and War Baby. The holocaust is a defining tragedy of the modern era and has to be remembered and understood so the inhumanity that spawned it cannot ever be allowed to return. Sadly Rwanda showed we have not learned. What has happened to the Yazidis showed we have not learned. What has happened to the Rohinger showed we have not learned. Man’s inhumanity to Man is a terrible fact of our make up and we all have to resist that darkness. It is a tragedy that in this day and age people deny and diminish the evil that was at the heart of Nazism. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rog Posted January 27, 2020 Share Posted January 27, 2020 Funnily enough I had a number of family who went to Auschwitz. None returned though. More went to Sobibor but only a few escaped and I had the honour to meet one when I was a kid. He NEVER spoke about what he went through. Germans? As a kid I couldn't understand my feelings about them especially since my grandparents didn't show the raw hatred against them that I thought that they should, but then my old Zayde* told me about the dreadful events surrounding the WW1 armistice and the treachery shown to Germany in creating the Treaty of Versailles. It was that which provided the fertile soil for Nazism to flourish. I hate what the Nazis did but it was 80 years ago. How could I hate a people for what a desperate sector of them did, I'll stick with hating what many/most of their grandparents and great-grandparents - driven to desperation by Versailles did. *Zayde - grandfather Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
manxman1980 Posted January 27, 2020 Author Share Posted January 27, 2020 @Rog did you watch that video? What that caller described about ordinary people doing extraordinary things may help you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rog Posted January 27, 2020 Share Posted January 27, 2020 9 minutes ago, manxman1980 said: @Rog did you watch that video? What that caller described about ordinary people doing extraordinary things may help you. Thanks, really, but now I'm comfortable in my own skin. I feel absolutely no animosity towards German folk indeed I feel pity for the results of Merkel and her invitation to all and sundry who are destroying what was up until her and her stupid mouth a fabulous country. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
manxman1980 Posted January 27, 2020 Author Share Posted January 27, 2020 Rog, this thread is not about politics it is about remembrance, respect and never forgetting the evil that humans can commit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rog Posted January 27, 2020 Share Posted January 27, 2020 8 minutes ago, manxman1980 said: Rog, this thread is not about politics it is about remembrance, respect and never forgetting the evil that humans can commit. What took place in the Shoah is inseperable from politics. It resulted from political decisions. Versailles set the clock ticking. It was as certain as night follows day that the German people simply could not live under the terms imposed on Germany by the allies. Later political decisions were taken by the allies that resulted in the death toll being so high, and it's political decisions that have been taken that are creating an environment in Germany and beyond that could very easily see a resurgence of ethnic cleansing across Europe and beyond. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chinahand Posted January 27, 2020 Share Posted January 27, 2020 Goodness Rog, you are one strange person. Certainly I'll agree that Versailles imposed deplorable conditions on the German people and it was basically inevitable that they would revolt against it. But any legitimacy revolting against Versailles has in no way what so ever provides even a shred of legitimacy for the holocaust. Rather sadly I expect you to vehemently disagree and insist the holocaust was a lesser evil. You are wrong. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rog Posted January 27, 2020 Share Posted January 27, 2020 10 minutes ago, Chinahand said: Goodness Rog, you are one strange person. Certainly I'll agree that Versailles imposed deplorable conditions on the German people and it was basically inevitable that they would revolt against it. But any legitimacy revolting against Versailles has in no way what so ever provides even a shred of legitimacy for the holocaust. Rather sadly I expect you to vehemently disagree and insist the holocaust was a lesser evil. You are wrong. Legitimacy? Not one iota. Explanation, that's a different thing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chinahand Posted January 27, 2020 Share Posted January 27, 2020 Zealots illegitimately blame a minority for an unjust treaty, they gain power and dehumanise a society bringing war and genocide. Some members of that society are able to maintain their moral compass and at great personal risk resist or support Jews or both, most acquiesce or worse. Trying to explain that acquiescence is a difficult thing - sadly for me I suspect most people can be encouraged to brutality surprisingly easily. Milgram's experiments offer a hint of this, but again there are fascinating variations between countries: When conducted in the United States, 65 percent of the subjects were fully obedient: they continued to administer electric shocks up to the highest voltage request by the experimenter. German subjects in the same experimental set-up were considerably more obedient, following orders 85 percent of the time (Mantell, 1971). The least obedient were the Australians, who had a 28 percent compliance rate; 40 percent of the men and 16 percent of the women were fully obedient (Kilham and Mann, 1974). There is a chance the holocaust is due to sadist bullies taking control of a compliant population. What role Versailles has in this who knows, but I think it is very important to teach people the value of humanity and a willingness to defy brutality. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
manxman1980 Posted January 27, 2020 Author Share Posted January 27, 2020 "FOR EVER LET THIS PLACE BE A CRY OF DESPAIR AND A WARNING TO HUMANITY, WHERE THE NAZIS MURDERED ABOUT ONE AND A HALF MILLION MEN, WOMEN AND CHILDREN, MAINLY JEWS FROM VARIOUS COUNTRIES OF EUROPE. AUSCHWITZ-BIRKENAU 1940-1945" Sorry for the caps but those words will forever remain with me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Uhtred Posted January 27, 2020 Share Posted January 27, 2020 1 hour ago, Chinahand said: ...sadist bullies taking control of a compliant population. So you mean like China, Russia, the USA and the UK of today? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
P.K. Posted January 27, 2020 Share Posted January 27, 2020 The Ascent of Man. Bronowski at Auschwitz. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chinahand Posted January 27, 2020 Share Posted January 27, 2020 Thanks, PK for reminding me of one of the most poignant pieces of TV I have ever watched. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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