Isle of Pride

[John Wright]

4 minutes ago, AcousticallyChallenged said:

I think it's deliberately used to invoke quite an emotive and visceral reaction.

A very good male-to-female trans friend of mine firmly believes that anti-trans rhetoric is at least partly rooted in internal misogyny, insofar as people not being able to get their heads around men wanting to transition to becoming, what they see as, the 'worse' gender. It's far easier to rationalise it as associated with a perversion in their heads. That's potentially where some of the 'men in dresses' false equivalence comes from.

With some, like Grieer, I agree. Rowling, I’m not sure.

[wrighty]

I can’t accept that it’s right for a former male weightlifter who now identifies as a woman to compete in the women’s category in the olympics. Does that make me transphobic?

[Annoymouse]

2 hours ago, Gladys said:

The changing room issue puzzles me.  I don't object to the gender of anyone in a changing room, I would be equally prim and proper regardless of the gender of those around me.  I don't think someone who is transitioning or has transitioned is any more likely to perv (should I really be such an object) than someone of the same gender. 

Not quite on subject but I was in a male loo recently when a female came in with a young boy in tow who needed to use loo, I wasn’t really sure what to make of it, she just said the female loo was busy and he was bursting and if she doesn’t go in then he won’t wash his hands.....

Can’t say it overly bothered me, it just isn’t something I’ve seen before. I was brought up by a single mother and I was always taken in the female toilet, but that doesn’t necessarily mean that was the correct thing to do either.

[Annoymouse]

6 minutes ago, wrighty said:

I can’t accept that it’s right for a former male weightlifter who now identifies as a woman to compete in the women’s category in the olympics. Does that make me transphobic?

What happens with the blood tests? what would stop a transgender MTF to temporarily stop their female hormone drugs during a competition, would their body start naturally producing testosterone again?

Its not something I know anything about, but it certainly seems grossly unfair on the surface of it.

[quilp]

You have to be careful nowadays... 

[John Wright]

17 minutes ago, Annoymouse said:

Not quite on subject but I was in a male loo recently when a female came in with a young boy in tow who needed to use loo, I wasn’t really sure what to make of it, she just said the female loo was busy and he was bursting and if she doesn’t go in then he won’t wash his hands.....

Can’t say it overly bothered me, it just isn’t something I’ve seen before. I was brought up by a single mother and I was always taken in the female toilet, but that doesn’t necessarily mean that was the correct thing to do either.

Do you have separately designated loos by  sex or gender at home? In the office? 

Lots of places in France, Italy, Spain, and lots of other countries have unisex loos.

The invasion of male facilities by women is a common phenomenon at places like the Amsterdam Opera house. A modern building with a seeming over supply of facilities. But at the end of an interval, 5 minute bell, if there’s a queue for the ladies they all pile into the gents. No one bats an eyelid. Apart from the Americans.

[Annoymouse]

58 minutes ago, John Wright said:

Do you have separately designated loos by  sex or gender at home? In the office? 

Lots of places in France, Italy, Spain, and lots of other countries have unisex loos.

The invasion of male facilities by women is a common phenomenon at places like the Amsterdam Opera house. A modern building with a seeming over supply of facilities. But at the end of an interval, 5 minute bell, if there’s a queue for the ladies they all pile into the gents. No one bats an eyelid. Apart from the Americans.

There has been separate loos in every workplace I’ve worked in, I think as a society we’re slowly getting better, I’ve seen a few females use the gents over the years and I couldn’t really care less, but it’s the first time I’ve seen a young mum come in with (I assume) her boy.

 

[wrighty]

30 minutes ago, Annoymouse said:

There has been separate loos in every workplace I’ve worked in, I think as a society we’re slowly getting better, I’ve seen a few females use the gents over the years and I couldn’t really care less, but it’s the first time I’ve seen a young mum come in with (I assume) her boy.

 

I’m pretty sure I’ve taken my daughters into a cubicle in gents toilets when they were too little to go in the ladies on their own. 

[Attila]

3 hours ago, John Wright said:

However I’m fence sitting about self certification for gender registration. 

Same, I think Government should be as less involved as it can in peoples’ private affairs. However, there is a valid argument to keep a record of how many trans people there actually are, there are layers of bureaucracy for so many facets of life and it’s somewhat inevitable. The census questions on this subject won’t be empirical as they were optional. 

I think the hysteria around female spaces being invaded has been blown out of proportion, but do I have sympathy for those who are growing frustrated with changing language. When NHS trusts are pushing to eradicate words such as ‘Mother’ and ‘breastfeeding’ and replace them with ‘Parent who has given birth’ and ‘chestfeeding’ it makes me feel a little sad, and that female biological functions seem to matter less. I can’t imagine that most trans men would mind, it seems to a very noisy woke minority who care about these things. 
 

[display name]

2 hours ago, quilp said:

You have to be careful nowadays... 

True,you never know what you might find

[HeliX]

11 hours ago, Zarley said:

Agreed. 

Whatever your opinion of AD may be, there were valid points brought up in the discussion that are ones I struggle with. For example...

It is true that a biological male who transitions after undergoing puberty will have a larger heart and bigger bones etc than her biological female counterparts, regardless of her hormone levels. It will give her a competitive edge in some sports.

Is it fair? Is it very much different to the use of steroids and other performance enhancing substances? 

"Hard to say" I think is the answer. There are strict hormone requirements (which have to be maintained for a year), and transwomen tend to be on Testosterone blockers. Cis women athletes have a fairly high level of Testosterone (compared to general public) due to training & diet. It's hard to measure what advantage/disadvantage is, particularly when at elite level sport you're often selecting for genetically abnormal people anyway (see: Eddie Hall and his mutated MSTN gene).

In the case of Laurel Hubbard, I think she probably does have an advantage, though again hard to say how big an advantage.

10 hours ago, Zarley said:

That's along the lines of what I see as a solution to the public toilets and changing rooms controversy. Provide male only, female only and add a third uni-sex/uni-gender facility.

The problem is - how do you police it? What would stop the minority of transwomen who wish to use biological female only facilities as a venue to sexually assault biological females from simply doing so anyway?

It's a minefield and as long as discussions are stifled by accusations of transphobia, we're never going to get anywhere. 

What stops the minority of men who wish to go into  a biological female only facility to sexually assault people from simply doing so anyway...? It's a lot easier than transitioning!

4 hours ago, Annoymouse said:

What happens with the blood tests? what would stop a transgender MTF to temporarily stop their female hormone drugs during a competition, would their body start naturally producing testosterone again?

Its not something I know anything about, but it certainly seems grossly unfair on the surface of it.

The levels have to be maintained for 12months. Also the natural levels probably wouldn't bounce back, and certainly not quickly. Even in men who supplement testosterone, it ruins their ability to produce any naturally.

[HeliX]

9 hours ago, The Dog's Dangly Bits said:

By them having their own category to compete in from a sporting perspective.

Wouldn't have enough population to be any good I wouldn't have thought.

Which only leaves a few options so far as I can see it:

1. We trial what's happening at the moment for a while and see what advantage/disadvantage is actually there (with rules around hormone levels etc)

2. We say that only those who transition pre-puberty can take part in competitive sports with the gender they identify with

3. We turn all sports into a bracketed system rather than splitting based on gender, which does have other benefits particularly around the very sticky subject of sex-testing female athletes

I dunno which is the best one. Not enough data.

[TheTeapot]

If you were a bloke and now you're a bird then you shouldn't be expecting to be a professional sportswoman. That's all there is to it. Do something else.

 

[Annoymouse]

37 minutes ago, HeliX said:

What stops the minority of men who wish to go into  a biological female only facility to sexually assault people from simply doing so anyway...? It's a lot easier than transitioning!

The other side of it is a man might want to identify as a women simply because they want an easier life in prison, not saying that females do get it easier, but that is certainly the perception.

[HeliX]

1 minute ago, Annoymouse said:

The other side of it is a man might want to identify as a women simply because they want an easier life in prison, not saying that females do get it easier, but that is certainly the perception.

I would presume there are more checks in place than simply being able to declare it while awaiting sentencing. Certainly for most "official" things in the States at least you have to have your gender legally changed.