HeliX Posted June 30, 2021 Share Posted June 30, 2021 2 minutes ago, Apple said: There is no time like an election to stand up for principles not mentioned before. She's been in that Department for 5 years. Eh? She was also a big part of facilitating the Pride festival. That seems a bit like mentioning support for LGBT+! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apple Posted June 30, 2021 Share Posted June 30, 2021 1 minute ago, HeliX said: She was also a big part of facilitating the Pride festival. I wonder why ...... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HeliX Posted June 30, 2021 Share Posted June 30, 2021 2 minutes ago, Apple said: I wonder why ...... I'm OK with being pleased that someone is doing the right thing even if there's a chance they're doing it for a cynical reason. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apple Posted June 30, 2021 Share Posted June 30, 2021 1 hour ago, HeliX said: 'm OK with being pleased that someone is doing the right thing even if there's a chance they're doing it for a cynical reason. we get the politicians we deserve. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HeliX Posted June 30, 2021 Share Posted June 30, 2021 1 minute ago, Apple said: we get the politicians we deserve. You seem unusually angry today. All OK? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apple Posted June 30, 2021 Share Posted June 30, 2021 I am fine thanks. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Wright Posted June 30, 2021 Share Posted June 30, 2021 1 hour ago, Apple said: I wonder why ...... Tell us what you’re implying or speculating. It was never intended to be an election year event. It was all ready for 2020. Covid got in the way. Was that her doing as well? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Max Power Posted June 30, 2021 Share Posted June 30, 2021 4 hours ago, Apple said: Maybe we should also focus on BAME health and social care services as well, but that doesn't carry enough votes yet does it. It certainly carried enough votes in Douglas East during the last election, the service has a lot of BAME workers who are largely all voters. Clare Barber was clever enough to target them and knew their concerns. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chef Raekwon Posted June 30, 2021 Share Posted June 30, 2021 6 minutes ago, Max Power said: It certainly carried enough votes in Douglas East during the last election, the service has a lot of BAME workers who are largely all voters. Clare Barber was clever enough to target them and knew their concerns. If only it wasn't for those pesky BAMEs you'd have got in. 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ghost Ship Posted July 1, 2021 Share Posted July 1, 2021 (edited) On 6/25/2021 at 6:55 AM, Chie said: ... On the subject of competing. Out of all the trans women competing in sports at the minute there really aren’t all that many, maybe one or two, that are actually managing to out compete their female counterparts. It is that one or two that the newspapers and right wing nut jobs focus on and hype up to give the impression that it is ALL trans competitors, when it fact it is a very small minority. In the past four to five years that certain American states have legally allowed trans female students to compete in female sports, there has not been one recorded that has managed to outcompete their cis female competitors. Cis men who want to feel superior and cis females who feel inferior try to define this argument in a super basic way by dumbing it down to a concept of male vs female. It is so much more complicated than that. To put it simply for the sake of not writing an entire essay. You have to consider the genetics of those more pre disposed and less pre disposed towards certain types of activity and analyse how one sex competes against not only their own sex but all of the other known four sexes. And then take into account how hormones affect the bodies of trans female athletes. The end result is inconclusive. No survey has ever found that trans females have any significant advantage when it comes to competing in cis female sports. This notion comes from a huge misunderstanding of the science and the simplification that is peddled of “man body is stronger”. I challenge any male on this forum to take on a serious group of cis female athletes and beat them in their chosen sport. Hint: You won’t... That's very interesting. Can I ask if you have you any sources for "No survey has ever found that trans females have any significant advantage when it comes to competing in cis female sports"? I was watching a Youtube channel on Olympic lifting and there was a discussion about Laurel Hubbard competing in Tokyo later this month. There seemed to be a lot of discussion but not much evidence. I started looking to see what was out there but couldn't really find anything. What I did find though - and which I suppose surprised me - was that Caitlyn Jenner has apparently stated that allowing trans women to compete in women only events is unfair. Caitlyn Jenner opposes trans girls in women's sports as unfair - BBC News. I'm not sure whether having been undeniably the best in the world at their chosen sport in 1976 when she was still a man gives her a uniquely privileged insight on these issues or not. It is perhaps a pity that at the age of 70 she is now too old to compete in the pentathlon at Tokyo - would she were 40 years younger. [Edit: Doh! Heptathlon - don't want to make it too easy for her. Not that she would compete as it would be unfair - in her view]. On 6/25/2021 at 6:55 AM, Chie said: I challenge any male on this forum to take on a serious group of cis female athletes and beat them in their chosen sport. Hint: You won’t. The comparison isn't between any male on this forum and a serious woman athlete though, is it? (Who would rationally expect any bloke on this forum - or on a street corner - to beat a serious woman athlete at their own sport? I worked out some years ago that Valerie Adams could apply almost four times as much force to the back of a shot as I could when I was 18. But I was only 18 then so plenty of scope for improvement!) Edited July 1, 2021 by Ghost Ship Heptathlon moron, not pentathlon... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chie Posted July 4, 2021 Share Posted July 4, 2021 On 7/1/2021 at 1:53 AM, Ghost Ship said: That's very interesting. Can I ask if you have you any sources for "No survey has ever found that trans females have any significant advantage when it comes to competing in cis female sports"? I was watching a Youtube channel on Olympic lifting and there was a discussion about Laurel Hubbard competing in Tokyo later this month. There seemed to be a lot of discussion but not much evidence. I started looking to see what was out there but couldn't really find anything. Not on hand as I am at work. However, if you look earlier on in my comments I do state there are one or two here and there. But, in terms of (few) serious study the results have been inconclusive. When I get home from work and have slept (I work nights). I will find the studies I was looking at and link you to them. On 7/1/2021 at 1:53 AM, Ghost Ship said: What I did find though - and which I suppose surprised me - was that Caitlyn Jenner has apparently stated that allowing trans women to compete in women only events is unfair. Caitlyn Jenner opposes trans girls in women's sports as unfair - BBC News. I'm not sure whether having been undeniably the best in the world at their chosen sport in 1976 when she was still a man gives her a uniquely privileged insight on these issues or not. It is perhaps a pity that at the age of 70 she is now too old to compete in the pentathlon at Tokyo - would she were 40 years younger. [Edit: Doh! Heptathlon - don't want to make it too easy for her. Not that she would compete as it would be unfair - in her view]. Caitlyn Jenner is not taken too seriously by the trans community these days as, as much as she is trans, she doesn't have a great track record when it comes to upholding the notion of trans rights. Earlier on in her transition, she did a lot to help the visibility of trans people but as the years have gone on she has shown support for Donald Trump and his quite anti trans views, she supports the Republican Party who are not overly fond of trans people at the best of times and besides speaking out once or twice has mostly defended her party's actions and decisions. In terms of what she stated about competing, what I said in my original post still rings true. There is a lot more to the situation than just "man body = better" which is the heavily implied and out right stated impression you get from this argument. On 7/1/2021 at 1:53 AM, Ghost Ship said: The comparison isn't between any male on this forum and a serious woman athlete though, is it? (Who would rationally expect any bloke on this forum - or on a street corner - to beat a serious woman athlete at their own sport? I worked out some years ago that Valerie Adams could apply almost four times as much force to the back of a shot as I could when I was 18. But I was only 18 then so plenty of scope for improvement!) Well. What I was more getting at is this generalised sweeping idea that because, for example, a trans woman has a male body she will automatically be better in ever conceivable way than cis females in whichever sport she decides to compete in. Given the sheer number of variables involved (mentioned earlier) in actually measuring this and how spectacularly they are ignored in favour of this basic notion of "man body = better and unfair". The overriding variable in this logic, the key to success, the golden goose is simply having a male body and everything that goes with it (testosterone). If this is the simplistic logic they want to go by. Then we can take that logic and apply it to any situation where it boils down to basically man vs woman. Hence my point, which you rightly inferred is utterly ridiculous. But, that is the argument that is being used. There is no consideration for the true genetic and hormonal side of the coin when it comes to transgender bodies, no consideration of the loss of 33% of your muscle mass through taking oestrogen, no consideration of the suppression of testosterone in the body and the ridiculous abundance of Oestrogen, no consideration for the genetic predisposition of the people involved. Just this focus that man = testosterone = BETTER = LET RAGE. In the case of, let's say, two serious athletes, one male one female, both more genetically predisposed towards sports, not transgender. Then yes, you could argue that due to the nature of testosterone the male would have a significant edge due to being able to perform for longer, push further etc etc given how aggressive a hormone testosterone is. But that argument can't be applied to transgender women because the variables you have to take into consideration are similar, but not the same. I hope you get what I meant. I am very very tired right now and ready to fall off my seat. If something didn't make sense please feel free to ask and I will elaborate once I have woken up xD. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
quilp Posted July 10, 2021 Share Posted July 10, 2021 It's important to appreciate the level of reluctance and open homophobia displayed by local cops, politicians and a large section of the GMP had against changing the laws on homosexuality in the good old, bad old days... Enjoyable debate. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
quilp Posted July 10, 2021 Share Posted July 10, 2021 Should CC Gary Roberts make an official apology for the historical harassment and appalling behaviour exhibited by the constabulary of the time? Would it make a difference? An admission of liability perhaps? In part 3, Tatchell talks of gay and bisexual men seeking compensation in the UK, Germany is already compensating its citizens convicted of historical gay 'crimes', should the IoM? Some harrowing experiences recounted by the panel. Alan Bell's first public interview since he left office, apparently. He came across well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gladys Posted July 10, 2021 Share Posted July 10, 2021 Just now, quilp said: Should CC Gary Roberts make an official apology for the historical harassment and appalling behaviour exhibited by the constabulary of the time? Would it make a difference? An admission of liability perhaps? In part 3, Tatchell talks of gay and bisexual men seeking compensation in the UK, Germany is already compensating its citizens convicted of historical gay 'crimes', should the IoM? Some harrowing experiences recounted by the panel. Alan Bell's first public interview since he left office, apparently. He came across well. Yes, the tactics employed were disgraceful and it was an establishment witch hunt for which an apology is the least to be done. Were the tactics even legal? 1 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
monasqueen Posted July 12, 2021 Share Posted July 12, 2021 Isn't this a case of the police being asked to apologise for upholding the law (as it was then)? If there should be apologies, they should be from those who made the laws and kept them in place. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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