Isle of Pride

[Gladys]

12 minutes ago, Zarley said:

I do realise that. However I still maintain that if Powers feels so strongly about an apology being issued, there's nothing stopping him from issuing his own as a serving member of the constabulary at that time. 

An apology from Powers would not mean that an apology from the wider institution wasn't necessary. 

Maybe it's just me, but I feel if I were in Powers shoes, and felt strongly enough about the issue to go on public record with my opinion, I would be inclined to go that one step further and issue my own apology for being part of what went on, whether directly or through my silence. 

It is a hard one, he has voiced his disquiet over what happened and thinks an apology is in order.  For a personal apology,  given the Nuremburg defence he has, I am not sure what it achieves.  The real apology is for the institional failings which allowed an individual's prejudices and biases to influence the institution as a whole. The institution should have had appropriate governance mechanisms in place to prevent that from happening.  Mind you, it would seem the courts were either complicit or complacent too. 

[quilp]

1 hour ago, Zarley said:

As Powers was a member of the constabulary in the 80s, what's stopping him from issuing his own public apology?

Presumably his apology would mean more as he was serving at the time, than an apology from Roberts, who wasn't. 

Roberts was serving at the time. If you watched/listened to the video with Moulton you'd learn that, allegedly, our Mr Roberts was on the surveillance team sat outside JS's house. 

[Zarley]

20 minutes ago, quilp said:

Roberts was serving at the time. If you watched/listened to the video with Moulton you'd learn that, allegedly, our Mr Roberts was on the surveillance team sat outside JS's house. 

🤦🏻‍♀️ I haven't had a chance yet to watch the Moulton interview but I've got it bookmarked. Will watch it before I put my foot in my mouth again. 

[Barlow]

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Edited July 13, 2021 by Barlow

[Mrs. Woman]

On 7/12/2021 at 7:15 PM, John Wright said:

I’m not going to get into a who did what and when argument. Or whether events held publicly, with hundreds attending, with advertising and press coverage, family events, drag, comedians,  were garden parties or something else. It’s not relevant.

I  know who the poster, Mrs. Woman, is in real life. No I didn’t go to Pride. I was unwell. I didn’t go to the 30th celebration. My invite only arrived Thursday, I had family staying, and we had plans. I’m not blaming. I’m glad no one cares. That was then. This is now. Different world. 

I don’t claim to be relevant. I handed over the reigns when the Manx Rainbow Association was set up. I set up switchboard, volunteered for 20+ years, I then sat for 8 years on the Police Diversity and Inclusion Scrutiny group, in my capacity as a gay man and an advocate ( advocates need to be liked and loved also ). I always made it clear I represented the views of no one but myself.

The baton has now passed to another generation and I’m glad that they, and Tynwald, have chosen to remember Alan Shea and Steve Moore and lots of unnamed people who were involved along the way. I’ve not sought to be mentioned or praised for my small part. Neither did anyone else. But it is good that there is a memory, recall, and gratitude. And,  ultimately, reconciliation.

However in 2015 and 2016 I was involved, along with the police officer leading the LGBTQ strand of the Scrutiny Group, in opening lines of communication between the Chief Constable and those who were then seeking an apology. I wasn’t looking for an apology for myself. I was just asked, and offered, to facilitate. The CC was willing to issue an apology. He wanted to be sure that the wording was agreeable. The approach was to those most deeply and intimately affected, the relevant people,  in the 1980’s and who were seeking the apology. In my view that was the correct approach.

I have all the e-mails and messages. 

It’s fact. The approach was rebuffed. A meeting was not able to be organised. I then developed leukaemia, and eventually, in 2019 stood down from the Scrutiny Group. The officer has retired. I’m not aware of anyone more recently on the scene being involved.

However, whatever Mrs.Woman says, the offer was made, the contact was made, but it wasn’t accepted. It seems it’s gone nowhere since.

Its important however, when the story being spun questions why there has been no CC apology, that the truth be told. It’s been there, on the table, to be picked up and thrashed out, for 6 years. I’m sure Mrs.Woman, and possibly Peter Tatchell, or Allan Bell, haven’t been told this inconvenient truth.

Because some people don't wish to be dragged into a talking shop, that could rumble on for months or years, doesn't mean they don't want an apology, need an apology. You yourself of the 13th of June have stated that you want an apology, spot on. Why does the wording even come under a matter for discussion, let the police force's advocates check it and just say it. But then we hit another hurdle, for in 2015 you said that the chief constable would apologise and tried to organise a meeting to discuss wording. However in 2018 the Chief Constable himself, grouping the gay community in the 80's and 90's with the Knotfield abuse, said he did not support the concept of contemporary leaders apologising for failures or for the shortcomings of how things were done in the distant past. This in the same statement that began with, I have apologised for what wasn't done in the 1970's,( the Knotfield Abuse Horror). How is anyone to believe in the sincerity of an apology whose words he won't write, possibly won't even make, and then be expected to trot along to 'meetings' with Gary Roberts and goodness knows how many other people. We don't want a mealy mouthed, half hearted apology, let him write it, from his heart, and mean what he says or it is a worthless gesture.

 

[Apple]

On 7/12/2021 at 8:37 PM, Mrs. Woman said:

It doesn't need a committee meeting to word an apology. All that's needed is for the Chief Constable to word his own apology, no heel dragging, no arguing, no months of meetings and disagreements. Just Gary Roberts saying he's sorry for the terrible things that happened.

If it is that simple why not write to him and ask for one. 

I don't know JW that well but his explanation (which he didn't have to give on this forum by the way) sounds reasonable and self explanatory given his circumstances over the past couple of years. 

I am not sure of the purpose of the personal criticism levelled at him. What is it meant to achieve.?

He's a decent chap by all accounts. 😀

[Gladys]

13 minutes ago, Apple said:

If it is that simple why not write to him and ask for one. 

I don't know JW that well but his explanation (which he didn't have to give on this forum by the way) sounds reasonable and self explanatory given his circumstances over the past couple of years. 

I am not sure of the purpose of the personal criticism levelled at him. What is it meant to achieve.?

He's a decent chap by all accounts. 😀

It smacks of asking for something reasonable in an unreasonable way, then when you don't get it, it is always the other side's fault. 

[Apple]

 @Gladys I agree. It's a strange strategy.

 

[the stinking enigma]

I dont see why there should be a gay hierarchy anyhow?

[quilp]

An interview with Alan Shea about the harassment of gay men in earlier years. He feels an apology is necessary from our outgoing CC for the campaign waged against himself and others. Government has already apologised for its role. Interesting that he says homosexuality was never illegal, only "the act." Mr. Roberts insists an apology will not be forthcoming. Alan also claims the CC's "possibly homophobic" apology over Knottfield cannot now be found anywhere on-line, having disappeared from the government website. Although I support Alan for all his efforts over the years I'm undecided about what an apology will achieve... 

 

 

[2112]

4 minutes ago, quilp said:

An interview with Alan Shea about the harassment of gay men in earlier years. He feels an apology is necessary from our outgoing CC for the campaign waged against himself and others. Government has already apologised for its role. Interesting that he says homosexuality was never illegal, only "the act." Mr. Roberts insists an apology will not be forthcoming. Alan also claims the CC's "possibly homophobic" apology over Knottfield cannot now be found anywhere on-line, having disappeared from the government website. Although I support Alan for all his efforts over the years I'm undecided about what an apology will achieve... 

 

 

Totally agree.

I would say that Alan and others are entitled and due an apology from Manx Plod, but unfortunately Gary Roberts is so pig headed and will dig in his heels. Hell will freeze over before Gary Roberts will say sorry. Sad I know, but he is a IOMG tool ……… of the establishment. Like Quayle I’d give Gary Roberts a gong, his pension and tell him to do one. Hopefully the next CC will be better. 

[finlo]

1 minute ago, offshoremanxman said:

Roberts was a young officer when they did all those blokes in the bogs at the grandstand. There was a lot of public sniggering and the taking down of people at the time for being caught bumming each other in public loos. He should apologize to be honest as it was politically motivated and they made a real example of those involved which must have adversely affected their lives. It was more of a purge than an act of active policing of the law. A lot of the subsequent prosecutions were reported on in sensationalist terms too by the media too which was unnecessary. It was typical IOM taking people down exercise that had little to do with much else in hindsight.

I know of at least one guy who topped himself over that.

[Stu Peters]

I'm not sure what official apologies - long after an event by people not responsible for those events - achieve. It seems I have to apologise for everything bad that's ever happened, from slavery to colonialism and everything in between. Whilst I have some sympathy for victims of past injustices (even if only moral rather than legal), should I apologise to Mr Shea for events that happened before I was a resident?

[The Voice of Reason]

33 minutes ago, quilp said:

An interview with Alan Shea about the harassment of gay men in earlier years. He feels an apology is necessary from our outgoing CC for the campaign waged against himself and others. Government has already apologised for its role. Interesting that he says homosexuality was never illegal, only "the act." Mr. Roberts insists an apology will not be forthcoming. Alan also claims the CC's "possibly homophobic" apology over Knottfield cannot now be found anywhere on-line, having disappeared from the government website. Although I support Alan for all his efforts over the years I'm undecided about what an apology will achieve... 

 

 

God blesssl you Alan.

I was relatively new to the Island but went to the Tynwald ceremony where you were dressed in the prison garb ( and if I remember rightly were roundly booed ). That must have taken some guts for you to do that.

On the Tynwald field there was a stall with day glo signs saying the likes of “God hates faggots” Like you see in the Louis Theroux documentaries. 
Worse still this stall seemed to be manned by children.

It did make me think what sort of a backward society have I come to?

However fortunately the IOM seems to have caught up with modern times now. But the police in the form of the Chief Constable need to acknowledge unreservedly the injustices of the past. No weasel words.

 

 

 

[The Voice of Reason]

3 minutes ago, Stu Peters said:

Whilst I have some sympathy for victims of past injustices (even if only moral rather than legal), should I apologise to Mr Shea for events that happened before I was a resident?

Not in a personal capacity no. But as an elected MHK it’s certainly something you should consider.