Isle of Pride

[Gladys]

46 minutes ago, quilp said:

An interview with Alan Shea about the harassment of gay men in earlier years. He feels an apology is necessary from our outgoing CC for the campaign waged against himself and others. Government has already apologised for its role. Interesting that he says homosexuality was never illegal, only "the act." Mr. Roberts insists an apology will not be forthcoming. Alan also claims the CC's "possibly homophobic" apology over Knottfield cannot now be found anywhere on-line, having disappeared from the government website. Although I support Alan for all his efforts over the years I'm undecided about what an apology will achieve... 

 

 

I think the reasons are clear:

What was done was wrong, it wasn't  enforcing the law, it went beyond that. 

There are people still around who have suffered from those incorrect police actions  either directly, or indirectly through the treatment (and loss) of a friend or family member.  There are also members of the police from that time still around. 

It will demonstrate humility and maturity.

That the mantra of "policing by consent" has some credibility. 

It will demonstrate that the police are committed to exercising their powers fully within the law and without the taint of prejudice and the kinds of actions perpetrated then would not be perpetrated now. 

But,  having said that, the fact that kind of policing was allowed is the "fault" of the whole legal system at the time. 

 

[2112]

9 hours ago, offshoremanxman said:

Howard Quayle has already apologized on your behalf as then Chief Minister. What they’re looking for now is a police apology. 

All Gary Roberts should do is make a statement even by press release admitting the events of 30 years ago caused great hurt and suffering, and IOM Constabulary apologise unreservedly. I’m sure that will draw a line. Whether he had the courage to do it is another matter.

ETA - having just read the comments on IOMNP Facebook page which is quite eye opening the people defending the people ‘you can’t pick and mix or cherry pick’ and whilst that argument may be true and hold water with the fact for the laws of the period, a simple and sincere apology I believe will please many people, and maybe this island can go on to address other concerning matters. 

Edited February 15, 2022 by 2112

[Gladys]

26 minutes ago, 2112 said:

All Gary Roberts should do is make a statement even by press release admitting the events of 30 years ago caused great hurt and suffering, and IOM Constabulary apologise unreservedly. I’m sure that will draw a line. Whether he had the courage to do it is another matter.

ETA - having just read the comments on IOMNP Facebook page which is quite eye opening the people defending the people ‘you can’t pick and mix or cherry pick’ and whilst that argument may be true and hold water with the fact for the laws of the period, a simple and sincere apology I believe will please many people, and maybe this island can go on to address other concerning matters. 

The apology should not be about legitimate law enforcement but the despicable tactics used, IMO. But that might be where the difficulty lies; admit it and they could be open to claims, perhaps? 

[2112]

14 minutes ago, Gladys said:

The apology should not be about legitimate law enforcement but the despicable tactics used, IMO. But that might be where the difficulty lies; admit it and they could be open to claims, perhaps? 

Your right but if no apology is given then this saga is dredged up perpetual, not that I am saying out of sight or mind. We end up every year with the same argument and it’s not going anywhere. There are lots of things that the Manx Establishment, police, judiciary and civil service have done that use despicable tactics, dodgy practices etc. This could be put to bed, with a simply worded apology, if people wish to try for damages then good luck to them, I can’t blame them. 

[Non-Believer]

30 minutes ago, Gladys said:

The apology should not be about legitimate law enforcement but the despicable tactics used, IMO. But that might be where the difficulty lies; admit it and they could be open to claims, perhaps? 

Plus, Gary Roberts may not feel obliged to apologise for the actions of a Force that took place 30 years ago which was simply "upholding the law" as it stood then.

The Police still use tactics some might regard as "underhand" in order to apprehend those engaged in equally "underhand criminal behaviour" now.

I'm certainly not condoning it now or the Police behaviour then but it was of another time and people were of a different attitude with different laws of which there were a myriad that would not be regarded as fair or acceptable now including employment laws, financial laws, the whole gamut across society which in some cases the Island was equally slow to update.

Should we be demanding apologies for the enforcement of all these laws at their long ago time too? 

 

[quilp]

Whether it's technically true or not (JW?), Alan Shea said homosexuality was never illegal, only the "act" i.e. the act of anal sex. How would the constabulary have proved it had taken place without admission from the allegedly guilty parties? How were the admissions obtained, under duress?

Having it off in a public place is still an offence, whether gay or straight so presumably any apology will not apply to those convicted of this offence and, being the Isle of Man, will remain as a criminal record for life.

Those affected will have to apply to have their convictions removed and one wonders how long the process might take, it's one thing saying that things wil be sorted by June but it seems it won't stop there for those who apply.

Shea also claims that the police apology over Knottfield was homophobic; that gays were indirectly connected to paedophilia by the poorly-worded statement, a statement which apparently has since disappeared from both the constabulary and government website. Hint of conspiracy there, perhaps.

CC Roberts was himself, as a junior cop, involved in the historical events as described by Shea, does this fact play a part in his refusal to issue the apology?

Should there be a public inquiry into the police's handling of the case? 

[John Wright]

2 hours ago, quilp said:

1. Whether it's technically true or not (JW?), Alan Shea said homosexuality was never illegal, only the "act" i.e. the act of anal sex. How would the constabulary have proved it had taken place without admission from the allegedly guilty parties? How were the admissions obtained, under duress?

2.Having it off in a public place is still an offence, whether gay or straight so presumably any apology will not apply to those convicted of this offence and, being the Isle of Man, will remain as a criminal record for life.

3. Those affected will have to apply to have their convictions removed and one wonders how long the process might take, it's one thing saying that things wil be sorted by June but it seems it won't stop there for those who apply.

4. Shea also claims that the police apology over Knottfield was homophobic; that gays were indirectly connected to paedophilia by the poorly-worded statement, a statement which apparently has since disappeared from both the constabulary and government website. Hint of conspiracy there, perhaps.

5. CC Roberts was himself, as a junior cop, involved in the historical events as described by Shea, does this fact play a part in his refusal to issue the apology?

6. Should there be a public inquiry into the police's handling of the case? 

1. Technically true. No duty advocate in those days. People sang and the police seized and forensically examined bed sheets, etc.

2. The definition of public is now very narrow.

3. Quite

4. The entire Tynwald Select Commitee enquiry and report, evidence and recorded evidence, was taken off the web site temporarily when Marshall was charged. Reason, so he couldn’t claim prejudice and unfair trial and escape justice on a technicality. That’s where the apology was. It should have gone back once convicted. I suspect someone is being cautious and waiting until after sentence.

5. There should be an apology. But terms should be agreed, so the LGBTQ community can’t come back after and say not sufficient. The process of agreeing was started. Alan refused to involve himself. They process stalled.  Since then Alan has consistently criticised Gary. If I was a betting man ( Methodist upbringing, don’t bet ) I’d say Gary has got fed up of the misportrayal of the situation.

6. which case? 

[quilp]

7 minutes ago, John Wright said:

1. Technically true. No duty advocate in those days. People sang and the police seized and forensically examined bed sheets, etc.

2. The definition of public is now very narrow.

3. Quite

4. The entire Tynwald Select Commitee enquiry and report, evidence and recorded evidence, was taken off the web site temporarily when Marshall was charged. Reason, so he couldn’t claim prejudice and unfair trial and escape justice on a technicality. That’s where the apology was. It should have gone back once convicted. I suspect someone is being cautious and waiting until after sentence.

5. There should be an apology. But terms should be agreed, so the LGBTQ community can’t come back after and say not sufficient. The process of agreeing was started. Alan refused to involve himself. They process stalled.  Since then Alan has consistently criticised Gary. If I was a betting man ( Methodist upbringing, don’t bet ) I’d say Gary has got fed up of the misportrayal of the situation.

6. Which case? 

I probably should've said any case in question and from what Alan says there may well be many who could claim improper treatment.

Incredible that they'd call in a forensic team to examine bedsheets. An indication of how determined they were to secure convictions.

Have you any opinion on the way the Knottfield apology was worded? Alan became quite heated about that, calling for the writer or producer of it to face prosecution for associating homosexuality to paedophilia in the apology. Is he making a point here? 

[John Wright]

4 hours ago, quilp said:

I probably should've said any case in question and from what Alan says there may well be many who could claim improper treatment.

Incredible that they'd call in a forensic team to examine bedsheets. An indication of how determined they were to secure convictions.

Have you any opinion on the way the Knottfield apology was worded? Alan became quite heated about that, calling for the writer or producer of it to face prosecution for associating homosexuality to paedophilia in the apology. Is he making a point here? 

I’ve no idea what the wording was. I don’t want to get drawn in. 

[Max Power]

20 minutes ago, offshoremanxman said:

Wasn’t the CC then Robin Oake? A religious zealot who probably thought that God was backing him in his quest to rid the IOM of gays.

Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination.

Leviticus 18:22

Bugger, what difference does it make anyway? Bloody bible bashers have a lot to answer for, how did this ever get written into law anyway?

[2112]

Well the Chief Constable Gary Roberts has made a apology in a 5 page letter to Clare Barber MHK, Isle of Pride Trustee. He apologised for ‘the way some officers enforced Manx Homosexuality laws’. A bit of a cop out really, and I think he was politically leant on by Jane Poole Wilson MHK Minister of Justice and Home Affairs and Isle of Pride Trustee, to do it before the Isle of Pride event next week. Whether the apology is good enough remains to be seen. The thing is now can we have apologies for those arrested for ‘breaking Covid rules’ and imprisoned?

[Passing Time]

14 minutes ago, 2112 said:

Well the Chief Constable Gary Roberts has made a apology in a 5 page letter to Clare Barber MHK, Isle of Pride Trustee. He apologised for ‘the way some officers enforced Manx Homosexuality laws’. A bit of a cop out really, and I think he was politically leant on by Jane Poole Wilson MHK Minister of Justice and Home Affairs and Isle of Pride Trustee, to do it before the Isle of Pride event next week. Whether the apology is good enough remains to be seen. The thing is now can we have apologies for those arrested for ‘breaking Covid rules’ and imprisoned?

Then issue an apology to our black friends about the Islands involvement in the slave trade...

Edited August 6, 2022 by Passing Time

[2112]

The apology was sincere but it was well rehearsed and had obviously been thought out as to how it was said. 

[John Wright]

17 minutes ago, 2112 said:

The apology was sincere but it was well rehearsed and had obviously been thought out as to how it was said. 

It was far too long, it was I’ll thought out, some bits were downright wrong, and it comes over as self justificatory. Frankly it sounds insincere.

Far better to have said, “following the change in the law and in the light of current enlightened social attitudes I wish, on behalf of myself, my officers, to apologise for unacceptable investigation and enforcement actions, undertaken historically by the Isle of Man police service,  against the LGBTQIA+ population of the Island”.

Its not acceptable to me.

I have nothing to do with Isle of Pride. I stepped down from the Inclusion group 5 years ago. I’m surprised they think it’s acceptable.

Its weasel words. I really thought better of CC Roberts.

 

[2112]

3 minutes ago, John Wright said:

It was far too long, it was I’ll thought out, some bits were downright wrong, and it comes over as self justificatory. Frankly it sounds insincere.

Far better to have said, “following the change in the law and in the light of current enlightened social attitudes I wish, on behalf of myself, my officers, to apologise for unacceptable investigation and enforcement actions, undertaken historically by the Isle of Man police service,  against the LGBTQIA+ population of the Island”.

Its not acceptable to me.

I have nothing to do with Isle of Pride. I stepped down from the Inclusion group 5 years ago. I’m surprised they think it’s acceptable.

Its weasel words. I really thought better of CC Roberts.

 

I’m sure the apology was run by his political boss. I don’t know why it ran into 5 pages, it was long winded, and should have been kept simple without waffling about the law. The apology was long overdue and should have been made years ago.