COVID-19 UK & Beyond

[Freggyragh]

6 minutes ago, TheTeapot said:

Do you have a source for this claim please? I read something earlier about ultra-orthodox groups in Israel appearing to have higher incidences (probably due to their continued attendance at large scale funerals apparently) but I can't seem to see anything about the UK.

Certainly sir:

https://www.google.com/amp/s/m.jpost.com/diaspora/jews-make-up-5-percent-of-coronavirus-deaths-in-the-uk-622385/amp

https://www.israelhayom.com/2020/03/29/why-are-coronavirus-fatalities-particularly-high-among-british-jews/

[Freggyragh]

China sending 6 doctors and 17.5T of emergency medical supplies to the U.K.

 

[mojomonkey]

2 minutes ago, Freggyragh said:

China sending 6 doctors and 17.5T of emergency medical supplies to the U.K.

 

Don't let Rog know, he's already in a Mad Max state of panic.

[P.K.]

3 hours ago, Chinahand said:

This was when there were less than 100 cases in the entire UK and no deaths until the 7th of March - it was on the 12th of March the government advised anyone with symptoms to self isolate with the shut down beggining.

Freggyragh wants to paint a picture of incompetence and denial, but the fact is the UK's response has been pragmatic, expert led and has changed as the evidence has advanced.

I'm not going to say it was perfect - testing has failed to advance as needed and yes there were muddles over sharing ventilators wth the EU - since sorted out, but ideology has not trumped pragmatism, quite the opposite.

Freggyragh's list is massively personalised and biased, and often factually wrong.  I'm not going to be accused of bias for pointing that out.

Wrong.

I think you're biased. Here is why.

Taking the "sharing ventilators with the EU" first it has not been "sorted out" as you put it but rather according to Brussells our government is lying to us. "Quelle surprise!" Not.

The testing has "failed to advance as needed" entirely due to lack of equipment/facilities. And they've known this has been coming for how long? Fail to prepare = prepare to fail etc.

Our wonderful overstretched due to underfunding Health Service have been operating without WHO recommended level PPE. And consequently catching the virus. With no tests available to them they have been spreading the virus until the first symptoms appear after a minimum of five days and up to about eleven days apparently. Now whose clever idea was it not to test them?  Of course, Johnson et al skate over the lack of PPE by claiming there's sufficient for the requirement. The fact it's not available at the point of need seems to have not warranted a mention. But clearly the system has never been stress tested and stockpiles were not distributed beforehand. Fail to prepare = prepare to fail etc.

The British Army have some 24 Logistics Regiments who have since been deployed to sort out the shortfall that should never have existed in the first place. With their own chain of command they can sort it 24/7, we never close, we never get tired, we never get paid overtime etc. Better late than never I suppose...

A look at the numbers is quite scary. Back of a fag packet taking a simple baseline of 10 infected by the 31st Jan (probably there were many more) by the time Johnson told the nation on the 12th March about the doomed to failure "herd immunity" nonsense there would have been some 20,000+ infected. By the time the Lockdown was instituted on the 23rd March it would have been around 200,000 infected. And that's just with 10 seeding it from the 31st Jan.

So from Johnson's "herd immunity" nonsense that he chose because had it worked it would cause the least damage to the economy up until the always inevitable Lockdown the number of infected would have risen by some 750%.

All down to Johnson's poor judgement and indecision.

Isn't that right Mr C?

 

 

 

[woolley]

@ PK. This carping is tiresome. I hardly think you are in a position of such neutrality that you can arbitrate on bias, do you? Really?

We know about the timeline. It looks to me as though no country in the world has this thing sussed, so why single out the UK?

We know that the PPE has been sat in a warehouse to the rising frustration of all, including the government. Johnson is not meant to deliver it personally. The stuff is there. The fact that it has not been delivered is surely down to failings of NHS logistics management. How hard can it be to shift stuff from where it is to where it's needed?

Last but not least, the principle of herd immunity is not nonsense. In the end it might turn out to be the only practical course to take.

[P.K.]

3 minutes ago, woolley said:

@ PK. This carping is tiresome. I hardly think you are in a position of such neutrality that you can arbitrate on bias, do you? Really?

We know about the timeline. It looks to me as though no country in the world has this thing sussed, so why single out the UK?

We know that the PPE has been sat in a warehouse to the rising frustration of all, including the government. Johnson is not meant to deliver it personally. The stuff is there. The fact that it has not been delivered is surely down to failings of NHS logistics management. How hard can it be to shift stuff from where it is to where it's needed?

Last but not least, the principle of herd immunity is not nonsense. In the end it might turn out to be the only practical course to take.

I singled out the UK because that's where myself and my family live.

My post is entirely about how a total lack of preparation coupled with Johnson's poor judgement and indecisiveness have made a bad situation worse.

The buck stops with Johnson. He should be held to account for the mistakes.

Simple as.

[Chinahand]

Your rhetoric is entirely overblown: “total lack of preparation” “indecisiveness”. 
 

Nothing is perfect but the NHS is more resilient and robust than the collapsing crisis ridden caricature portrayed by the left for the last 40 years. 
And indecisive: yeah the socialisation of basically the entire economy’s wage bill and shutting down the economy while putting the government into a state of emergency is definitely a sign of dithering. 

[TheTeapot]

1 hour ago, P.K. said:

I think you're biased.

Snigger

[Rog]

10 minutes ago, TheTeapot said:

Snigger

Racist!

[Chinahand]

 

[Freggyragh]

39 minutes ago, Chinahand said:

Your rhetoric is entirely overblown: “total lack of preparation” “indecisiveness”. 
 

Nothing is perfect but the NHS is more resilient and robust than the collapsing crisis ridden caricature portrayed by the left for the last 40 years. 
And indecisive: yeah the socialisation of basically the entire economy’s wage bill and shutting down the economy while putting the government into a state of emergency is definitely a sign of dithering. 

You obviously don’t have people close to you on the frontline or you’d know they’ve been crying out for PPE for nearly two months and begging to ditch England’s guidelines for testing. Thankfully they’re following WHO guidelines here now. Still reliant on England to process the tests. There has to be an enquiry after this to see how well the IOM has been served by the link to England. 

[woolley]

8 minutes ago, Freggyragh said:

There has to be an enquiry after this to see how well the IOM has been served by the link to England. 

By whom, and to what end?

[Freggyragh]

If you want a bit of a change from pointing out the shortcomings of someone other than the regime in England, you need look no further than EUFA and the organisers of Cheltenham. In the absence of an effective government Liverpool should have defied EUFA and cancelled the game against Atletico, and allowing the game between Atalanta (hometown Bergamo, ground zero for Covid19 in Italy) and Valencia on Feb 19 was a biological time bomb. 

[P.K.]

2 hours ago, Chinahand said:

Your rhetoric is entirely overblown: “total lack of preparation” “indecisiveness”. 

Nothing is perfect but the NHS is more resilient and robust than the collapsing crisis ridden caricature portrayed by the left for the last 40 years. 
And indecisive: yeah the socialisation of basically the entire economy’s wage bill and shutting down the economy while putting the government into a state of emergency is definitely a sign of dithering. 

No it is not.

Why was it not locked down on the 12th March? And the borrowing to allow the inevitable Lockdown was just following the lead of others. Hardly trailblazing was it?

Simple things were simply not done. So Mr C, why were they unable to test frontline NHS staff when clearly they should have done? You don't suppose a shortage of testing equipment/facilities had anything to do with it do you? Lack of the correct standard of PPE where it was needed. Not exactly rocket science is it?

The WHO told them "How can you fight a virus when you don't know where it is?" and right now we have absolutely no idea where it is. We have probably got thousands of cases self isolating but we have no idea of how many,  where they are or for how long they have been like that. A simple instruction to call 111 to log your condition would have helped but instead we have nothing. Why is that? You don't suppose they don't want it to get in the public domain by chance?

You've already tried once to skate over our "resilient and robust" NHS figures once when facing the reality. Here, try again...

On 3/12/2020 at 2:44 PM, P.K. said:

Interesting survey by the EU just after the referendum on the number of Curative Care Beds per 100k population in the 28 member states. Some salient points.

The EU average was 372.2.

Top of the list was Bulgaria with 616.8

Second was Germany with 601.5

Twentieth was France with 309.0

Second from last the UK with 211.4

No doubt more have been lost since then...

Good luck with that one...

ETA: After a weekend of being pilloried for the stupid "Herd Immunity" nonsense Johnson was back on the box with the next "phase" of the "strategy" as if abandoning the policy of a few days ago was all part of the plan. Remember the "avoid going down the pub" and all the rest of the BS? I call that indecisive dithering. What would you call it?

Edited March 29, 2020 by P.K.

[Chinahand]

A pulmonary critical care doctor takes questions and answers on treatment and staying safe: