manxman1980 Posted June 19, 2020 Share Posted June 19, 2020 6 hours ago, P.K. said: So what, specifically, do the borders have to open to facilitate? Funny isn't it that the same people who wanted to "take back control" are largely the same people who are complaining about closed borders now.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
woolley Posted June 19, 2020 Share Posted June 19, 2020 8 hours ago, P.K. said: So what, specifically, do the borders have to open to facilitate? A degree of normality. Tourism, business travel. It's a big part of many economies. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
woolley Posted June 19, 2020 Share Posted June 19, 2020 1 hour ago, manxman1980 said: Funny isn't it that the same people who wanted to "take back control" are largely the same people who are complaining about closed borders now.... Taking back control is nothing to do with cowering away from a virus. An independent country remains open to the world for business and travel. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
P.K. Posted June 19, 2020 Share Posted June 19, 2020 37 minutes ago, woolley said: A degree of normality. Tourism, business travel. It's a big part of many economies. In my experience you only have to face-to-face to build trust. So yes, the vast majority of "business travel" is simply ego-puffing. As for tourism on the island well, errr, perhaps.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Albert Tatlock Posted June 19, 2020 Share Posted June 19, 2020 1 hour ago, woolley said: A degree of normality. Tourism, business travel. It's a big part of many economies. We have to keep the borders closed - and under strict control and health monitoring. The publicity the island has had now about being 'covid free' for a while, will attract all and sundry and result in a second wave many times worse than the first. Just imagine 2 infected persons here for two weeks visiting hotels, shops, pubs etc. The hospital would soon become overloaded. Then we'll all have to go back into lockdown and the last 3 months will have been a complete waste of time - and we might as well have let it run rife the first time. Most businesses are finding they do not need to do face to face, nor do many of their customers actually want them to at present. The big issue for the economy is tourism. Realistic support packages will have to be provided for at least the remainder of the year and we will need to face up to that. And that includes furloughing numerous government staff involved in that sector to help fund some of the support required for the private sector. I believe the majority of people support keeping the borders closed and heavily health controlled - it might be tough for quite a few people - and this is why adequate government support is necessary. But to throw away all our advantages of having got this under some control, to support what is the minority of businesses and workers here (Tourism), would be foolish. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Manximus Aururaneus Posted June 19, 2020 Share Posted June 19, 2020 16 hours ago, P.K. said: A tad disingenuous there Woolster. Not been taking lessons from Bozo by chance...? The figures may look the same for infections and deaths but that's because it's moving from country to country and testing and stressing the preparedness of the new entities it's infecting. But it's also leaving behind it countries who have suffered but also learned. The flare-up in Beijing is a good case in point. They have very quickly, and surprisingly very publicly, come down very hard with lockdowns, travel bans etc etc because they know that's what they have to do to beat the virus. And it CAN be beaten. New Zealand beat it. Of course, the two folks who re-infected the country just HAD to come from the UK.... I think that you are confusing 'Beat' with 'Avoid' P.K. Lots of people patting themselves on the back and claiming credit for the existence of the Irish and Tasman seas. Time will tell. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
P.K. Posted June 19, 2020 Share Posted June 19, 2020 8 minutes ago, Manximus Aururaneus said: I think that you are confusing 'Beat' with 'Avoid' P.K. Lots of people patting themselves on the back and claiming credit for the existence of the Irish and Tasman seas. Time will tell. NZ is what success looks like. This is a worry though: "The UK's coronavirus alert level has been downgraded from four to three, its chief medical officers have said. "Under level three, the virus is considered to be "in general circulation" and there could be a "gradual relaxation of restrictions". "Previously transmission was considered to be "high or rising exponentially". "Health Secretary Matt Hancock said the change was "a big moment for the country" and showed that the government's plan was working." If the government's "plan" is working then it's not due to the government that's for sure. If I remember correctly the "world beating" track and trace system would be rolled out to replace the lockdown etc etc. It turns out the "world beating" track and trace system is a pile of poo. Last night on Newsnight a Dr Michael Veale a lecturer at UCL stated quite categorically that he and his team contacted "the government" on the 11th April to tell them that their "world beating" APP would not work and gave the reasons why. So here we are TWO MONTHS LATER with Hancock et al admitting that the system they were working on had run into the same difficulties that the UCL team had told them it would. iplayer 5 mins 44secs in https://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/m000k4f6/newsnight-18062020 It would appear there's nothing they can't fuck-up.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
woolley Posted June 19, 2020 Share Posted June 19, 2020 So fire the expensive government scientists then. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
woolley Posted June 19, 2020 Share Posted June 19, 2020 27 minutes ago, P.K. said: NZ is what success looks like. Well. Success in avoiding the infection for now. In an extremely small and geographically isolated country. Too soon to call. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
P.K. Posted June 19, 2020 Share Posted June 19, 2020 21 minutes ago, woolley said: Well. Success in avoiding the infection for now. In an extremely small and geographically isolated country. Too soon to call. That's an extremely small country that's 10% bigger than the UK. Joggers not your strong suit then Woolster...? The very obvious and massive difference between NZ and the UK is one of leadership. Because we simply don't have any... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
P.K. Posted June 19, 2020 Share Posted June 19, 2020 30 minutes ago, woolley said: So fire the expensive government scientists then. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Manximus Aururaneus Posted June 19, 2020 Share Posted June 19, 2020 5 minutes ago, P.K. said: That's an extremely small country that's 10% bigger than the UK. Joggers not your strong suit then Woolster...? The very obvious and massive difference between NZ and the UK is one of leadership. Because we simply don't have any... 10% bigger than the UK is a totally irrelevant figure. UK has a population density of 725 per square mile, Iom is half that at 377 m/2, whilst New Zealand, with more sheep than people has a mere 48 per M/2. I.e. UK has population density fifteen times greater than NZ. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheTeapot Posted June 19, 2020 Share Posted June 19, 2020 35 minutes ago, woolley said: Well. Success in avoiding the infection for now. In an extremely small and geographically isolated country. Too soon to call. Hmm. That's not the way I look at it. I'd say it is success in having minimal transmission so that you can easily track and control any infection. In a pandemic you are, initially, always behind the curve apparently. The success comes from getting ahead of it. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wrighty Posted June 19, 2020 Share Posted June 19, 2020 1 hour ago, P.K. said: That's an extremely small country that's 10% bigger than the UK. Joggers not your strong suit then Woolster...? The very obvious and massive difference between NZ and the UK is one of leadership. Because we simply don't have any... I'm not going to make much attempt to defend the UK response as I think there's much to criticise. However, NZ's success is not all down to their PM being far better than yours. Things NZ have in its favour are: Population density - much lower than the UK Connectivity - many more international travellers land in London than Auckland or Wellington. A big factor in the UK being hit is that it is thought that about 1300 cases were imported into the country almost simultaneously (based on genetic analysis of the viral genomes there) - the kiwis have only had 1500 cases total. Timing - UK was hit before NZ by about a month. Decisions are relatively easy once you've seen what's happening elsewhere in the world. Seasonality - Covid infections are decreasing across Europe, despite the poor action of certain governments. Perhaps it's like flu and waxes and wanes with the seasons. Before we all start congratulating the Kiwis too much let's see how they fare over the next 6 months. I don't think it'll be too bad because the whole world knows how to handle this now, but the Southern Hemisphere have had it easier. UK were caught out, were inadequately prepared in PPE and testing capability despite their previous 'wargames' and could have done better. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
woolley Posted June 19, 2020 Share Posted June 19, 2020 2 hours ago, P.K. said: That's an extremely small country that's 10% bigger than the UK. Joggers not your strong suit then Woolster...? The very obvious and massive difference between NZ and the UK is one of leadership. Because we simply don't have any... Idiot. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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