COVID-19 UK & Beyond

[Rog]

5 minutes ago, P.K. said:

How many more times do people like you have to be told before you get it?

Nobody is disputing that action had to be taken.

Nobody.

Is that finally clear enough...?

Lonan3 put it a lot better on here than I can but it's not so much what was done but HOW it was done.

London and the tory shires did very nicely under Thatcher. The rest could go hang.

Which is why her demise (I wish her well) caused such an outpouring of hatred for her that I have never seen directed against a UK PM before or since.

There was a reason for that. Can you guess what it is?

It was not London or "the Conservative Shires" that the problem was in.  It was the industrial towns and communities that were relying on hopelessly inefficient and obsolete industries that were producing goods that were costing far more, and I mean FAR more to produce than they could be imported for.  To make matters even worse wage inflation as a direct result of union activity was responsible for inflation in the UK that was screwing up the cost of investing in the UK, investment in nationalised industries were going straight into wages and not modernisation where it was needed.

So the reason that the industrial places were affected most by the "get well" program is actually rather simple.

It was in those places that the root of the problem existed.

[manxman1980]

1 hour ago, P.K. said:

Lonan3

Only knew him by his username on here.  A sadly missed contributor.

[P.K.]

4 hours ago, manxman1980 said:

Only knew him by his username on here.  A sadly missed contributor.

A real gentleman. And a very clever one.

[P.K.]

5 hours ago, Rog said:

It was not London or "the Conservative Shires" that the problem was in.  It was the industrial towns and communities that were relying on hopelessly inefficient and obsolete industries that were producing goods that were costing far more, and I mean FAR more to produce than they could be imported for.  To make matters even worse wage inflation as a direct result of union activity was responsible for inflation in the UK that was screwing up the cost of investing in the UK, investment in nationalised industries were going straight into wages and not modernisation where it was needed.

So the reason that the industrial places were affected most by the "get well" program is actually rather simple.

It was in those places that the root of the problem existed.

I asked you if you knew why Thatcher was hated and reviled by millions of your countrymen.

Why not try answering....?

[Rog]

8 hours ago, P.K. said:

I asked you if you knew why Thatcher was hated and reviled by millions of your countrymen.

Why not try answering....?

Ignorance, and being on the losing side of the socio-civil war that took place. 

Tell you what.  Why don't YOU explain why you appear to hate and revile probably the best peace time PM this country has ever had?

[sir nige]

16 hours ago, P.K. said:

How many more times do people like you have to be told before you get it?

Nobody is disputing that action had to be taken.

Nobody.

Is that finally clear enough...?

Lonan3 put it a lot better on here than I can but it's not so much what was done but HOW it was done.

London and the tory shires did very nicely under Thatcher. The rest could go hang.

Which is why her demise (I wish her well) caused such an outpouring of hatred for her that I have never seen directed against a UK PM before or since.

There was a reason for that. Can you guess what it is?

tony "wmd" blair.......

[Albert Tatlock]

10 minutes ago, sir nige said:

tony "wmd" blair.......

...and all these pages of Rog PK tennis has what to do with the Corona virus?

[Freggyragh]

I don’t think it’s possible for most English of either side to make a fair judgement about Callaghan or a Thatcher. They seem to think the choices of the day were entirely separate from the global oil shock, the state and behaviour of the Soviet Union, the slow rise to economic prominence of the Pacific Rim, Nixon’s sell out to Mao, the impending loss of the Hong Kong cash cow, the failure of the Northern Ireland statelet, the bonanza of North Sea oil, the rise and fall of military dictatorships in South America, the end of military fascism in Spain, Portugal and Greece and the post-Suez reality of Britain’s place in the world. 
 

Thatcher projected the illusion of having control over events extremely well and did what was necessary to steer Britain through. If she sometimes wasn’t very caring it’s probably because she Britain was in a very weak position when she took over and she could not afford to be seen as soft, particularly as she was constantly targeted by misogynists for being a strong woman. Her principal achievements came from being rational and decisive, her main failures from being overly rational. Since you raised the issue of the Belgrano, lets look at that in a little more detail, because she received harsh criticism for that, and I was inclined to believe a lot of that criticism at the time. Now that the facts of the matter are clear I think that the controversy shows the politics of the left in a far worse light than it does poor old Maggot Hatcher. 
 

Argentina was ruled by a facist military junta that disappeared dissenters by the thousand. They invaded the Falklands. No doubt there is some blame to be laid at the Brits for letting Argentina think this was a reasonable course of action, and certainly there were failures of diplomacy, but you have to remember that this happened when the Common Market was just a trading bloc and there was no onus on the rest of Europe to help out.

The U.K.’s military response was mostly limited to the islands themselves when Thatcher had the capability of destroying all the coastal cities of Argentina. The Brits put a 200 mile exclusion zone around the islands so that they could ascertain the intentions and potential threat of any approaching vessels. They also made clear that the exclusion zone was not to be the limit of their military activity. The Belgrano was outside the exclusion zone when it was sunk, but all Argentinian ships had received orders (which the Brits were aware of) to take part in a massed attack and Captain Bonzo of the Belgrano was under orders to attack any British vessel he could find. Neither he, nor the Argentinian Admiral ever complained that the Belgrano was not a legitimate target.
 

The deaths of 323 of the crew were tragic, but in the circumstances, who is to blame? The fascist dictatorship that sent a mostly conscripted crew to sea in an obsolete warship to support an invasion of another country’s territory? The Argentinian navy that provided no support (the supposed escorts didn’t know of the attack until the next day)? The Argentinian communications that allowed the Brits to decide their attack plans? The Belgrano’s officers who didn’t have the water-tight doors shut? Or Thatcher, whose job it was to make decisions about the safety of British service personnel, merchant navy crew and Falkland Island civilians? 

Edited March 8, 2020 by Freggyragh

[P.K.]

2 hours ago, Albert Tatlock said:

...and all these pages of Rog PK tennis has what to do with the Corona virus?

It's to take your mind off it!

Like this:

THE DOCTOR'S VIRAL POST AND HIS ADVICE ON CORONAVIRUS: 

I'm a doctor and an Infectious Diseases Specialist. I've been at this for more than 20 years seeing sick patients on a daily basis. I have worked in inner city hospitals and in the poorest slums of Africa. HIV-AIDS, Hepatitis,TB, SARS, Measles, Shingles, Whooping cough, Diphtheria...there is little I haven't been exposed to in my profession. And with notable exception of SARS, very little has left me feeling vulnerable, overwhelmed or downright scared.

I am not scared of Covid-19. I am concerned about the implications of a novel infectious agent that has spread the world over and continues to find new footholds in different soil. I am rightly concerned for the welfare of those who are elderly, in frail health or disenfranchised who stand to suffer mostly, and disproportionately, at the hands of this new scourge. But I am not scared of Covid-19.

What I am scared about is the loss of reason and wave of fear that has induced the masses of society into a spellbinding spiral of panic, stockpiling obscene quantities of anything that could fill a bomb shelter adequately in a post-apocalyptic world. I am scared of the N95 masks that are stolen from hospitals and urgent care clinics where they are actually needed for front line healthcare providers and instead are being donned in airports, malls, and coffee lounges, perpetuating even more fear and suspicion of others. I am scared that our hospitals will be overwhelmed with anyone who thinks they " probably don't have it but may as well get checked out no matter what because you just never know..." and those with heart failure, emphysema, pneumonia and strokes will pay the price for overfilled ER waiting rooms with only so many doctors and nurses to assess.

I am scared that travel restrictions will become so far reaching that weddings will be canceled, graduations missed and family reunions will not materialize. And well, even that big party called the Olympic Games...that could be kyboshed too. Can you evenimagine?

I'm scared those same epidemic fears will limit trade, harm partnerships in multiple sectors, business and otherwise and ultimately culminate in a global recession.

But mostly, I'm scared about what message we are telling our kids when faced with a threat. Instead of reason, rationality, openmindedness and altruism, we are telling them to panic, be fearful, suspicious, reactionary and self-interested.

Covid-19 is nowhere near over. It will be coming to a city, a hospital, a friend, even a family member near you at some point. Expect it. Stop waiting to be surprised further. The fact is the virus itself will not likely do much harm when it arrives. But our own behaviors and "fight for yourself above all else" attitude could prove disastrous.

I implore you all. Temper fear with reason, panic with patience and uncertainty with education. We have an opportunity to learn a great deal about health hygiene and limiting the spread of innumerable transmissible diseases in our society. Let's meet this challenge together in the best spirit of compassion for others, patience, and above all, an unfailing effort to seek truth, facts and knowledge as opposed to conjecture, speculation and catastrophizing.

Facts not fear. Clean hands. Open hearts. Our children will thank us for it. 

[P.K.]

2 hours ago, Freggyragh said:

The deaths of 323 of the crew were tragic, but in the circumstances, who is to blame? The fascist dictatorship that sent a mostly conscripted crew to sea in an obsolete warship to support an invasion of another country’s territory? The Argentinian navy that provided no support (the supposed escorts didn’t know of the attack until the next day)? The Argentinian communications that allowed the Brits to decide their attack plans? The Belgrano’s officers who didn’t have the water-tight doors shut? Or Thatcher, whose job it was to make decisions about the safety of British service personnel, merchant navy crew and Falkland Island civilians? 

Thatcher. Her stupid policies sent out the political message that the UK was abandoning the Falkland Islands which precipitated the invasion.

As for the Belgrano it's sinking also sank any chance of a peace plan which would have had Thatcher out of Downing Street. How convenient. Anyway the lies about the Belgrano from no 10 were leaked by civil servant Clive Ponting. He appeared in court charged under the Official Secrets Act. The judge directed the jury to find him guilty. They promptly declared him innocent. The reasoning being that exposing the lies coming from the government was most definitely in the public interest.

Boris Johnson take note....

[Rog]

40 minutes ago, P.K. said:

Thatcher. Her stupid policies sent out the political message that the UK was abandoning the Falkland Islands which precipitated the invasion.

As for the Belgrano it's sinking also sank any chance of a peace plan which would have had Thatcher out of Downing Street. How convenient. Anyway the lies about the Belgrano from no 10 were leaked by civil servant Clive Ponting. He appeared in court charged under the Official Secrets Act. The judge directed the jury to find him guilty. They promptly declared him innocent. The reasoning being that exposing the lies coming from the government was most definitely in the public interest.

Boris Johnson take note....

#1

Let's open a thread maybe titled something along the lines of two views about Margaret Thatcher?

#2 

Re Belgrano.  I have a personal interest in this because I had a now sadly late friend on the Conquerer who sorta hinted that the circumstances would eventually emerge but would never say more.  I later learned this was because of the thirty year rule.

When a book, "The Silent Listener: British Electronic Surveillance Falklands" was published I bought it having read the notes that accompanied the 

announcement and was very happy to have laid out a few quid. 

I just checked and it's still in print and can be bought from Amazon.

If you're interested in FACTS and not spin then I really recommend you get hold of it. I think it'll be an eye opener for you and maybe others.

 

Edited March 8, 2020 by Rog

[P.K.]

Just now, P.K. said:

The withdrawal of HMS Endurance, the British Nationality Act of 1981, Clive Ponting's trial and acquittal and Boris Johnson being an inveterate liar are all irrefutable facts.

Tough...

 

[Rog]

3 minutes ago, P.K. said:

 

Well old son if you don't like the direction that the UK has taken and has continued to take albeit with occasional hickups such as the Blair yearsi then there are 'planes, boats, and even trains many times a day to leave on.

The immortal words of the great Dorothy Parker seem rather apposite. "You can lead a horticulture but you can't make her (him?)think"

End of.

[P.K.]

35 minutes ago, Rog said:

Well old son if you don't like the direction that the UK has taken and has continued to take albeit with occasional hickups such as the Blair yearsi then there are 'planes, boats, and even trains many times a day to leave on.

The immortal words of the great Dorothy Parker seem rather apposite. "You can lead a horticulture but you can't make her (him?)think"

End of.

Meanwhile back in Reality Land...

[sir nige]

22 minutes ago, P.K. said:

Meanwhile back in Reality Land...

bj's ratings have gone up.......