BoJo taken into hospital

[P.K.]

1 hour ago, Shake me up Judy said:

STFU P.K.

Will not.

So there.....

Yah boo sucks to YOU!

[P.K.]

1 hour ago, Shake me up Judy said:

STFU P.K.

You have to admit that Johnson is part of the problem.

IMHO Declan is absolutely spot on in that one of Bozo's many failings is that he needs to be liked.

I'm sure that contributed to his truly appalling address to the nation where he "advised" us to avoid going down the pub and more nonsense like that.

Of course, nobody can take him seriously so another week was wasted while folks swanned about the Lake District, Snowdonia, Brighton beach and so forth and all the while the virus carried on making serious inroads into our population. Which we will be seeing turning up in our hospitals over the next few weeks.....

[woolley]

13 hours ago, Freggyragh said:

People also smoke less, transport is safer, industrial pollution is far better managed, people have better access to healthy food, health and safety regs have been brought in protect workers and consumers, homes are safer and house fires are far less common. I could go on. 

Some newer medical treatments are very expensive, and there have been some shortages and some short-cuts taken, but in my experience, the NHS is exceptionally good at what it does, and what it does is hardly matched by any other health system in the world. It could always do with more, of course it could. You’ll never have a government that can provide for all what most countries can only provide for a tiny elite. 

Having said that, there should have been mechanisms in place to defend us better from the virus. I think we’ll handle the next one better, and maybe people will start to realise that more money and praise should be directed to the NHS. 

I have no issue with the NHS as a free service at the point of delivery. It's a principle worth guarding. It is rife with inefficiency though, and it could achieve so much more for the ever increasing pots of money it receives if it was carrying a lot less bureaucracy and pen-pushing management on six-figure salaries. If a lot of that deadwood could be excised and things organised better, perhaps there would be more to spend on the front line troops.

[pongo]

11 minutes ago, woolley said:

It is rife with inefficiency though, and it could achieve so much more for the ever increasing pots of money it receives if it was carrying a lot less bureaucracy and pen-pushing management on six-figure salaries. If a lot of that deadwood could be excised and things organised better, perhaps there would be more to spend on the front line troops.

I do not believe that efficiency should be the primary goal of something like the health service. Outcomes should be the measure of success or failure. The NHS is not a business. It should not be measured against metrics which apply to businesses.

And isn't it to be expected that a large organisation like the NHS will need layers of modern management just as much as it needs medical professionals?  

Many of the worlds best services are hopelessly inefficient. Because they are not measured by efficiency. 

[woolley]

5 minutes ago, pongo said:

I do not believe that efficiency should be the primary goal of something like the health service. Outcomes should be the measure of success or failure. The NHS is not a business. It should not be measured against metrics which apply to businesses.

And isn't it to be expected that a large organisation like the NHS will need layers of modern management just as much as it needs medical professionals?  

Many of the worlds best services are hopelessly inefficient. Because they are not measured by efficiency. 

Efficiency is not the primary goal of the health service, but getting as much of the available resource to the front line to spend on healthcare is. Therefore the efficiency of the organisation is essential. I would have thought that this is obvious. The fact that it is a healthcare provider is not a licence for waste on a grand scale. It needs efficient management, and those best services in the world you speak of would be even better if they were not hopelessly inefficient.

[Manximus Aururaneus]

9 minutes ago, pongo said:

I do not believe that efficiency should be the primary goal of something like the health service. Outcomes should be the measure of success or failure. The NHS is not a business. It should not be measured against metrics which apply to businesses.

And isn't it to be expected that a large organisation like the NHS will need layers of modern management just as much as it needs medical professionals?  

Many of the worlds best services are hopelessly inefficient. Because they are not measured by efficiency. 

Google 'QALY' 

[pongo]

5 minutes ago, woolley said:

I would have thought that this is obvious.

Most things which people call "obvious" turn out to be much more complicated and nuanced. But then that's the nature of populism in general - that it proposes seemingly obvious and typically simplistic answers to what are often much more difficult and complex problems.

I feel that you expose your assumptions and prejudices when you talk about "pots of money" and "pen-pushing management on six-figure salaries". 

[Rog]

39 minutes ago, Manximus Aururaneus said:

Google 'QALY' 

And the problem with that is?

[Shake me up Judy]

The NHS can swallow as much money as you can throw at it, with little or no improvement to its quality of delivery. You only have to look at Nobles here. There has to be a radical rethink and perhaps a restructure after this. This crisis has proved how much we need the core NHS and the heroes who work in it, but we have to start looking at other models as well if we're going to go on providing the first class healthcare that we value so much. 

[Manximus Aururaneus]

5 minutes ago, Rog said:

And the problem with that is?

I don't know Rog, but I have a feeling in my bones that you are about to tell me.

[Rog]

1 minute ago, Manximus Aururaneus said:

I don't know Rog, but I have a feeling in my bones that you are about to tell me.

Better visit a chiropractor then. I was just wondering what was wrong with QALY.

[P.K.]

10 minutes ago, pongo said:

Most things which people call "obvious" turn out to be much more complicated and nuanced. But then that's the nature of populism in general - that it proposes seemingly obvious and typically simplistic answers to what are often much more difficult and complex problems.

I feel that you expose your assumptions and prejudices when you talk about "pots of money" and "pen-pushing management on six-figure salaries". 

Quite so.

Very much the realm of the UK right wing press and the "alternative reality" they feed their readers on a daily basis.

This is the reality - https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2020/apr/04/tories-protect-nhs-coronavirus-slogan

I'm surprised that the attempt by Labour to remove the freeze on public sector pay, you know, like nurses etc, in 2017 hasn't been mentioned yet:

Conservative and Democratic Unionist Party (DUP) MPs have voted down Labour’s attempts to reverse the long-running freeze on public sector pay.

The pay rate for workers in the public sector has been frozen at one per cent rises since 2010 and Labour tabled an amendment of regret to the Queen’s Speech pushing for a pay rise.

Tory and DUP MPs came together to vote down the motion by 323 votes to 309.

Labour shadow chancellor John McDonnell:

"Tories and DUP just voted together to oppose Labour's policy to give emergency and public service workers a fair pay rise. Utter disgrace," he said.

Here is the list of MPs who voted against Labour’s amendment who have recently had a podium finish on how wonderful our NHS is:

Michael Gove (Conservative - Surrey Heath)

Matt Hancock (Conservative - West Suffolk)

Boris Johnson (Conservative - Uxbridge and South Ruislip)

Dominic Raab (Conservative - Esher and Walton)

[pongo]

13 minutes ago, Rog said:

Better visit a chiropractor then

Or maybe a witch doctor or a homeopath. Or a fortune teller.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chiropractic

Quote

Chiropractic is a pseudoscientific complementary and alternative medicine ...

Systematic reviews of controlled clinical studies of treatments used by chiropractors have not found evidence that chiropractic manipulation is effective, with the possible exception of treatment for back pain.

 

[ecobob]

Anyway, what’s the latest on Boris?

[Manximus Aururaneus]

18 minutes ago, Rog said:

Better visit a chiropractor then. I was just wondering what was wrong with QALY.

Chiropractor is self isolating so so I've moved the feeling to my waters and have a telecon with the urologist in the morning.

Nothing wrong with Quals in principle, but I know that it has many flaws in the detail. Bit like NICE.