BoJo taken into hospital

[woolley]

59 minutes ago, pongo said:

Most things which people call "obvious" turn out to be much more complicated and nuanced. But then that's the nature of populism in general - that it proposes seemingly obvious and typically simplistic answers to what are often much more difficult and complex problems.

I feel that you expose your assumptions and prejudices when you talk about "pots of money" and "pen-pushing management on six-figure salaries". 

You expose yours when you ignore waste and inefficiencies which in the NHS are legion, when it isn't even controversial that this is so. If anyone thinks that there are not pots of money going into the NHS or that there isn't an oversupply of pen-pushing management they are deluded. In waste and inefficiency, by comparison to the NHS even the IOM Government are novices. Way too many administrators. It's the public sector.

Your position that because it is a health service efficiency doesn't matter is frankly nonsense. Problem is that it's a sacred cow and that includes all of its faults as well as its attributes.

[woolley]

40 minutes ago, Shake me up Judy said:

The NHS can swallow as much money as you can throw at it, with little or no improvement to its quality of delivery. You only have to look at Nobles here. There has to be a radical rethink and perhaps a restructure after this. This crisis has proved how much we need the core NHS and the heroes who work in it, but we have to start looking at other models as well if we're going to go on providing the first class healthcare that we value so much. 

Absolutely, and perhaps if that was the case there would be more resource for a pay rise for those poorly paid (and that isn't everyone by any means) at the sharp end. This model is not the envy of the world as we are so often told. If it were, maybe others would be more keen to copy it.

[manxman1980]

28 minutes ago, woolley said:

You expose yours when you ignore waste and inefficiencies which in the NHS are legion, when it isn't even controversial that this is so. If anyone thinks that there are not pots of money going into the NHS or that there isn't an oversupply of pen-pushing management they are deluded. 

The NHS generates huge quantities of data which cannot be managed by the frontline staff.  They therefore need admin functions and management to deal with it.

They need all that 'paperwork' to keep track of patients, the drugs they have been administered, a history of treatment etc etc to not only assist with patient care but also in the event that the NHS is sued.

Just put a little thought into it and you will see that it is a very complex organisation and one that would not operate without the 'pen pushers'.

[Annoymouse]

20 hours ago, quilp said:

Raab. 

Good job he’s doing too.

[woolley]

13 minutes ago, manxman1980 said:

The NHS generates huge quantities of data which cannot be managed by the frontline staff.  They therefore need admin functions and management to deal with it.

They need all that 'paperwork' to keep track of patients, the drugs they have been administered, a history of treatment etc etc to not only assist with patient care but also in the event that the NHS is sued.

Just put a little thought into it and you will see that it is a very complex organisation and one that would not operate without the 'pen pushers'.

What a strange post. It isn't all or nothing. I'm not advocating getting rid of them all! And Pongo talks about populism. Seems to me those advocating the status quo here have the monopoly on simplistic thinking.

[P.K.]

20 minutes ago, woolley said:

Absolutely, and perhaps if that was the case there would be more resource for a pay rise for those poorly paid (and that isn't everyone by any means) at the sharp end. This model is not the envy of the world as we are so often told. If it were, maybe others would be more keen to copy it.

Absolutely hilarious!

Once again the survey after the referendum on the resources of the Health Services of the EU 29 entities put our NHS second from last place.

That's second from last place for the allegedly fifth largest economy on the planet as the brexiteers love to tell us.

Obviously a total mismatch there. Where could it have come from?

 

[manxman1980]

13 minutes ago, woolley said:

What a strange post. It isn't all or nothing. I'm not advocating getting rid of them all! And Pongo talks about populism. Seems to me those advocating the status quo here have the monopoly on simplistic thinking.

I simply don't have time to work through all the minutiae for you.

The NHS is a lot more than frontline Doctors and Nurses.  It owns and maintains substantial amounts of property all of which must be maintained, updated, and ultimately replaced.  

It has huge quantities of assets such as medical diagnostic tools to computers for admin staff.  All of which must also be maintained, updated and replaced.

There will be loads of other activities which are not directly related to providing medical care but without which the NHS would simply stop operating.

It needs more funding, it needs less political interference and it needs the public to not swamp it with minor ailments that can be treated at home.

[Manximus Aururaneus]

19 minutes ago, manxman1980 said:

I simply don't have time to work through all the minutiae for you.

The NHS is a lot more than frontline Doctors and Nurses.  It owns and maintains substantial amounts of property all of which must be maintained, updated, and ultimately replaced.  

It has huge quantities of assets such as medical diagnostic tools to computers for admin staff.  All of which must also be maintained, updated and replaced.

There will be loads of other activities which are not directly related to providing medical care but without which the NHS would simply stop operating.

It needs more funding, it needs less political interference and it needs the public to not swamp it with minor ailments that can be treated at home.

I agree with all of your post, especially the last line, you obviously have ties - but the NHS needs one thing even more than it needs your last line - care to hazard a guess at where I'm heading?

[Freggyragh]

That’s a good final point. I think perhaps you should have to pay towards initial consultations with GPS.  Even a fiver per initial consultation would be a big help. In my experience, big PLCs are the most wasteful institutions. The U.K. pays less towards healthcare than most countries, but that is because most other countries’ systems have involve diverting huge sums to insurance companies, banks, investors, advertisers, and political lobbyists. We have a brilliant system, it just needs politicians that truly believe in it and are immune from the persuasions of profiteer lobbyists. 

[woolley]

1 hour ago, Freggyragh said:

That’s a good final point. I think perhaps you should have to pay towards initial consultations with GPS.  Even a fiver per initial consultation would be a big help. In my experience, big PLCs are the most wasteful institutions. The U.K. pays less towards healthcare than most countries, but that is because most other countries’ systems have involve diverting huge sums to insurance companies, banks, investors, advertisers, and political lobbyists. We have a brilliant system, it just needs politicians that truly believe in it and are immune from the persuasions of profiteer lobbyists. 

I agree that it should remain free at point of delivery and we should go nowhere near an insurance model - biggest shysters in business. In my experience too, PLCs are outrageously wasteful, but then it's only shareholders' money. Another positive aspect of the current NHS model is centralised drug pricing so that big pharma cannot play off one UK provider against another, hence our medicines are so much cheaper than in other countries. However, it could be much more efficient in the way it is run. Not sure about charging to see a GP. I can see the attraction in discouraging time wasters but the worried well are not all short of cash, and you might put off the poor person who has to choose between seeing the doctor and eating that day. It could prove to be a critical choice, or at least more expensive treatment in the long run as has been the experience in the case of cutting free eye tests.

[Freggyragh]

So why not ask for donations? I was hospitalised a few years ago due to an injury that required reconstructive surgery and the treatment I got was world class - and I’ve been hospitalised in two other G7 countries for similar, whilst heavily insured, and  though I required slightly less severe treatment I’d prefer the NHS over both. I would have happily chipped in a grand towards treatment, but you’re not even asked.

[Len Trench]

[the stinking enigma]

I'm just looking forward to seeing whichever inventive ruse he will come up with to explain his absence, should he ever actually get coronavirus.

[woolley]

11 hours ago, the stinking enigma said:

I'm just looking forward to seeing whichever inventive ruse he will come up with to explain his absence, should he ever actually get coronavirus.

If he hasn't had it he should get a BAFTA because he looks like shite. He needs to be careful. 

[ballaughbiker]

On 4/12/2020 at 4:52 PM, Len Trench said:

 

As an atheist, I suddenly find myself  preoccupied by Ascension Day, which is a first.