IOM Covid removing restrictions

[Happier diner]

10 minutes ago, Roger Mexico said:

The main problem is, as you say, we don't know so much.  But even using the  scenario you suggest, herd immunity can't be achieved because there's no such thing as 'some' immunity, you either have it or you don't.  So if vaccination doesn't provide immunity, it can't contribute to herd immunity.

So the best we can hope for is that the vaccine reduces transmissability by reducing the viral load.  But the virus will still be passed on - just not so often.

See biology lesson above. Vaccines don't give herd immunity but they contribute to its development in groups of people. Herd immunity is just a state where lots of people have had the virus or been vaccinated so the chance of coming into contact with an infected person (who is shedding the virus) is low.

IT IS NOT A FORM OF IMMUNITY, in fact it is not an immunity at all. Its is just a state or situation where transmission reduces.

[wrighty]

12 minutes ago, Roger Mexico said:

The main problem is, as you say, we don't know so much.  But even using the  scenario you suggest, herd immunity can't be achieved because there's no such thing as 'some' immunity, you either have it or you don't.  So if vaccination doesn't provide immunity, it can't contribute to herd immunity.

That's exactly how immunity, at least to some things, works.  If you have 'some' immunity you may not get ill with an infection, you may need a higher viral load to get infected, or you may not infect others as much.  It's not a binary state.

[Cambon]

13 minutes ago, Roger Mexico said:

The main problem is, as you say, we don't know so much.  But even using the  scenario you suggest, herd immunity can't be achieved because there's no such thing as 'some' immunity, you either have it or you don't.  So if vaccination doesn't provide immunity, it can't contribute to herd immunity.

So the best we can hope for is that the vaccine reduces transmissability by reducing the viral load.  But the virus will still be passed on - just not so often.

By "some immunity" I mean immunity to the variant you have caught, which may offer some protection from other variants. 

The bit about transmissability is the issue. The current thinking is that basically, if you have the vaccine, you can still catch the virus but are unlikely to get a serious dose. Possibly asymptotic, but still shed the virus.

[Andy Onchan]

32 minutes ago, WTF said:

nice touch to have  circle of chairs so people can sit and talk about their feelings.

My name's David and I'm an alcoholic........

[AcousticallyChallenged]

10 minutes ago, Happier diner said:

A mild dose is a short exposure to the virus. It can be as good as the vaccine. If you get a small exposure, a fit body will produce antibodies before they become ill. This is what the asymptomatic people do.

Biology lesson over

Isn't the issue with COVID that you start shedding the virus before you become symptomatic?

I'm sure it has been said by Dr Glover that current literature thinks asymptomatic people shed just as much virus at that stage.

[John Wright]

5 minutes ago, Andy Onchan said:

My name's David and I'm an alcoholic........

Do the missus and auntie J know?

[Banker]

If hub schools are full why don’t we open another or get more teachers in?, if key workers need kids in schools they should get them open 

http://www.iomtoday.co.im/article.cfm?id=60146&headline=Keep your children at home until February 1&sectionIs=NEWS&searchyear=2021

[Happier diner]

1 minute ago, Cambon said:

By "some immunity" I mean immunity to the variant you have caught, which may offer some protection from other variants. 

The bit about transmissability is the issue. The current thinking is that basically, if you have the vaccine, you can still catch the virus but are unlikely to get a serious dose. Possibly asymptotic, but still shed the virus.

I'm sorry but where do you get this information? Is it a view that you have made?

With any vaccine you still 'get' the virus. It enters your body. It then tries to reproduce. Your immune system fights it and kills it off.

Viruses are attacking us all the time but a fit strong body can produce antibodies that kill them before they establish themselves. These are the asymptomatics.

The vaccine gives us help by showing us a threat with our body remembers. It gives people a head start to be like the asymptomatics.

You are using the word dose incorrectly. You cannot control the dose, only the effect of the dose on your body.

We (the human race) do not know if we can pass the virus on once we are vaccinated. It's not a case of could pass it on. We don't know. However there is no known case of a vaccinated person passing it in on.

[Happier diner]

7 minutes ago, AcousticallyChallenged said:

Isn't the issue with COVID that you start shedding the virus before you become symptomatic?

I'm sure it has been said by Dr Glover that current literature thinks asymptomatic people shed just as much virus at that stage.

Yes. Theoretically they could. But common sense would say that if you were overrun with virus to the stage where you were shedding it in lumps, it's unlikely that you would not feel some effect on your body.

[Roger Mexico]

1 minute ago, wrighty said:

That's exactly how immunity, at least to some things, works.  If you have 'some' immunity you may not get ill with an infection, you may need a higher viral load to get infected, or you may not infect others as much.  It's not a binary state.

I was thinking of it more in a functional way - ie the level of infection in a vaccinated person never gets high enough for them to pass it on to someone else, rather than just being suppressed enough so as to lower the odds. 

I'm not sure what evidence there was of the level of suppression from the various vaccine trials and what level of monitoring is being done of various vaccination programmes.  i couldn't find much and the problem with trials is that they were looking mainly for symptomatic cases.

[Cambon]

5 minutes ago, Happier diner said:

 

We (the human race) do not know if we can pass the virus on once we are vaccinated. It's not a case of could pass it on. We don't know. However there is no known case of a vaccinated person passing it in on.

That is exactly the point. We don't know. That is why, if you are vaccinated and decide to travel, you still have to isolate on your return. 

[Happier diner]

2 minutes ago, Roger Mexico said:

I was thinking of it more in a functional way - ie the level of infection in a vaccinated person never gets high enough for them to pass it on to someone else, rather than just being suppressed enough so as to lower the odds. 

I'm not sure what evidence there was of the level of suppression from the various vaccine trials and what level of monitoring is being done of various vaccination programmes.  i couldn't find much and the problem with trials is that they were looking mainly for symptomatic cases.

Understood. However I don't think that, if you were immune, the virus would stay in your body in a suppressed state. It's not impossible, maybe if you were constantly coming into contact with infected persons and getting top ups. 

The vaccine is not a stone wall to becoming infected and ill. It reduces the risk significantly and gives you a defence. 

[Andy Onchan]

8 minutes ago, Banker said:

If hub schools are full why don’t we open another or get more teachers in?, if key workers need kids in schools they should get them open 

http://www.iomtoday.co.im/article.cfm?id=60146&headline=Keep your children at home until February 1&sectionIs=NEWS&searchyear=2021

I see that any CV related articles on iomtoday website have the opportunity for readers to comment on removed.

Richard, why is that?

[Happier diner]

Just now, Cambon said:

That is exactly the point. We don't know. That is why, if you are vaccinated and decide to travel, you still have to isolate on your return. 

That would make sense, yes, If you were exposing yourself to a situation where the virus was rife, you could inadvertently carry it with you for a short time, even though it is not reproducing inside you.

Perhaps this is why governments think that restrictions on movement will be with us for a while yet.

[Annoymouse]

The biggest issue going forward will be those who opt for 21 days isolation rather than have the 3 tests. If there is a family returning then it’s still theoretically possible for them to carry the virus between them beyond the isolation period and back into the community. However small that risk might be, in an elimination strategy we can’t afford to carry that risk.