IOM Covid removing restrictions

[PaulJ]

2 minutes ago, Neil Down said:

what a load of tripe. I have personally seen them move people on along the prom

Oh,I never knew the prom was the whole of the island

[Neil Down]

38 minutes ago, PaulJ said:

Oh,I never knew the prom was the whole of the island

You didn't specify, just made a generalisation of what the police weren't doing

[Manximus Aururaneus]

On 4/26/2020 at 4:24 PM, John Wright said:

My reading is

1. you can both stay here. No issues.

2. There is nothing to stop either of you going away to UK. Whether or not you or your wife may be key workers is wholly irrelevant. There’s no exit restriction leaving the Island or entry restriction entering UK. Key worker status in UK may affect where you can go and what you can do once you arrive. Returning for you both is very different.

3. if you leave IoM you can only return with IoM government permission, and,  if you aren’t a Manx key worker, with a sponsoring employer, you can only do it via the repatriation route and 2 weeks paid for quarantine in the Comis. And then there’s a question as to whether they’d allow you to return if you’d knowingly departed during lock down, rather than being caught off island when lock down was imposed.
 

4. your wife might travel for non Manx work related reasons. In that case her position isn’t much different to yours. If she travels off island as part of her Manx key worker job, sponsored by her government department employer, then she can return.

5. you are missing the meaning of common in CTA. It’s the common external border. Not internal travel within the CTA once inside that common border.

Nice to see IOMG listen, consider, and enact change to eradicate anomalies. Very much appreciated by those affected.

425 clinically led.
Mr President, whether through debates in this Hon. Court, through technical briefings to

Members, through press conferences or the media more generally, Government has done a lot of talking. But we have also been listening. We have listened carefully to concerns expressed by Hon. Members and members of our public.

430 Yesterday, the Council of Ministers considered a paper from the Cabinet Office and approved seven changes that I know will be of interest to Hon. Members. Some will require amendments to Regulations that we will bring forward shortly.

The Council of Ministers agreed that: (1) we should allow Isle of Man residents who work in roles that are critical for the UK but not necessarily the Island to return to the Island and435 continue to leave and return to fulfil their role. These people will be required to follow strict protocols to prevent the spread of COVID-19 and would be the subject of a legal direction to

self-isolate for 14 days each time they return to the Island.

Edited May 2, 2020 by Manximus Aururaneus

[Filippo]

Here is my detailed reply to John Wright posting of Monday the 27th of April, 03:54 pm. But first of all, let me point out again that 18 out of the 22 IOM Covid-19 fatalities have been from the Abbottswood’s assisted living facility; and indeed I would bet that all IOM  fatalities have been from elderly over 70 yo with other serious health conditions (cf. attached Manx Radio’s snapshot below, and in the meantime another death has been reported Friday, still Abbottswood’s related).

> I am not quoting or responding in full, but you are writing total twaddle.

I did not write my postings to this forum in the style of a formal paper authored with my full name. However, all I wrote is factually based. There are plenty of figures and facts which are immediately verifiable if you bother to just google for them.

> Abbottswood is a private facility, as are most on island. It was up to their management to have the right PPE or acquire it.

It is licensed and regulated by the IOM government. Indeed, my understanding is that their license has now been revoked and IOM government has taken full charge. If IOM authorities had acted sooner, those deaths could have been avoided. It is technically impossible to eradicate a virus such as Covid-19 from the wider community, due to the R0 of an unimpeded transmission being well above 3 and the fact that over 85% of carriers have no symptoms. However, an assisted living facility made of a few buildings is a pretty close kind of environment where anything that goes in and out can be closely monitored. If all nurses and other staff had been monitored for infection, and if the residents had also been monitored for infection, isolated when needed, the outbreak would have been avoided.

The whole point I am making is that IOM government has tried to protect me, for instance, for which it is receiving absolutely no gratitude, from me, you can rest assured, since I have low risk of having a serious Covid-19 illness; while it has failed to protect those who most obviously needed to be safeguarded.

Covid-19 kills the very old and those suffering from a specific set of illnesses and conditions. There are exceptions to this rule, but exceedingly rare. Some relatively young doctors and nurses are at risk if not provided with adequate PPE because within a health care settings there is the possibility of infection with high viral load; but otherwise, the risk of serious complications for most people is very low. The fatality rate across the whole population is 1-3 times the common flu.

> Have you checked death figures in homes in Italy France Spain, they’re bad, with hot spots, multiple deaths, emergency evacuations.

If Italy and Spain had adopted a more liberal form of social distancing, on a voluntary basis and following an honest and adult conversation with the public, such as Sweden and the Netherlands and Switzerland have done, Italy’s and Spain’s situation would now be better and more manageable in the longer term. The best strategy to deal with Covid-19 is to focus on isolating those who are more at risk from serious complications. To try to “protect” the wider population from a virus with such low death rate (1-3 times the common flu) is pointless and an absolutely enormous waste of resources. It is also a guarantee fail in the long term, as no immunity is achieved within the wider population and the virus can resume spreading as soon as the lockdown is lifted, and the lockdown cannot continue for ever.

> It’s nothing to do with food shopping, relative visiting. They provide food, cook it, to all residents. Visiting stopped weeks ago. It’s come in via staff.

Yes, and staff could and should have been monitored closely.

> Residents aren’t going to pass it on to anyone, other than other residents or staff.

They also should have been monitored closely for infection.

> Lockdown stops it’s spread in the community. The IOM lockdown has been spectacularly successful.

What IOM’s lockdown has unfortunately achieved  is preventing the wide population from acquiring immunity from the damn virus. Thus, we are now stuck into this lockdown indefinitely, possibly for years. IOM government has acted cowardly after it has seen the UK campaign, which was entirely driven by politics, politics, politics.

> Your suggestion of what is scientific consensus is clearly wrong.

You are factually and documentably wrong. Until it was an epidemiological science issue, the consensus was that a pandemic agent with a profile (reproduction rate and fatality rate) such as Covid-19 could not and should not be suppressed in the wide population. UK pandemic planning was not about how to achieve suppression, but how to achieve a controlled spread limiting damage until the infection had burned itself out by natural course. Indeed, the UK government, following scientific advice, had been into this kind of planning for agents less contagious and with higher fatality rate than Covid-19. The more contagious a pathological agent is, the higher the cost of trying to suppress it; and the less deadly it is, the lower the payoff from any suppression which might be achieved (and in the specific case of Covid-19 suppression is technically impossible). The UK had a pandemic rule-book and it chucked it out as soon as the pandemic became a political issue. It could not stand the way in which the left would have capitalised on it with silly arguments such as “Tories killing grannies for money”... those heartless Tories. Academic advice also immediately turned from logic arguments towards politics, as you would expect considering the obvious left-wing political leanings of 4/5 of them (and the remaining 1/5 has to fall in line not to prejudice their academic career).

================================================================================================

Here are some further events of the past few days:

1) The 277 South Korean Covid-19 “reinfection cases” that originally prompted doubts about acquired immunity were in fact false positives, according to researchers at Seoul University. You can read it by yourself:
http://m.koreaherald.com/view.php?ud=20200429000724

Heard immunity has never been disproved; and it has started to become apparent from the flattening out of the Swedish curve of cumulative deaths.

2) Last Wednesday the WHO hailed Sweden as the “model” for “the new normal”, as there is now mounting evidence that their plan will achieve the intended result. As you can see from the 2nd and 3rd figures below, the Swedish curve of cumulative deaths has started flattening out (considering that it is lagging the UK’s curve by about ten days; it has to be shifted a bit backwards to make the two curves comparable). Since most things (including schools, gyms, bars and restaurants) are open there, such flattening out can only be derived from heard immunity rather than punishing social isolation. By mid-June you will see a sharp fall in their number of daily deaths; their policy will have beaten out the virus, and there won’t be much concern about a second wave when restrictions are lifted, because there won’t be that many restrictions to lift. Two weeks ago a serological study showed that 26% of Stockholm residents had already acquired the antibodies that confer immunity; by now that percentage must be kind of 40%, since two weeks have passed and many don’t get the antibodies because the T-cells of their immune system sort out the infection before any illness, even mild, kicks in.

When mid June comes for us fearful Britons, thanks to the demented policy of total suppression of a virus so easily transmissible such as Covid-19, we will be still stuck into this damn lockdown, with closed borders and perhaps even gyms and sport and recreational facilities still closed, with no end in sight. The British covidiots will still be holed into their homes for the imbecile purpose of saving the bullshit institution of the NHS, which must work as a pure form of socialism and be divined too to add insult to injury (just compare its performance with those of the European countries that have decentralised insurance based health care system: Switzerland, Germany, Austria). When those Swedish cumulative deaths flatten out, the covidiots will have the evidence of their failure presented in front of their eyes. This absurd lockdown has brought economic devastation and wreckage to people lives, mental and health problems, and it will have all been for nothing!

3) I am not the only one who is angry and outspoken, Elon Musk for one did not mince his words and characterised it unambiguously as fascist:

https://www.cnbc.com/2020/04/29/elon-musk-slams-coronavirus-shelter-in-place-orders-as-fascist.html

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZHZdAp_Yku

Hitler and Stalin could have not come up with a better plan than this virus to impoverish and degrade the population first and then establish authoritarian control. The likes of Orban are enacting the virus plan to the full extent. And of course the Communist Party of China could have not been more diabolic.

Britain, as a reaction to this crisis, thought the signs where already there from the need to ramp up support for Brexit, is sliding into a paternalistic right-wingism, which worries me less than the left-wing confiscatory version of it as concerns my own personal finances to be clear, but still it is so pathetic and mediocre. We had just got rid of the European Union parasite; now this other parasite has infected good governance. Can’t we just be free?

4) Eventually, and this is what gives me hope, people will not be able to live under lockdown for much longed and they will start taking matters into their hands. There will be always a few covidiots who won’t venture out for fear of being fulminated; but most people will conclude that years of social distancing imposed through the force of the state is too immensely degrading to our lives to be acceptable. The 4th picture shows a comparison of the M4 on April 30 and the same time on April 10; so pleased to see it.

5) The 5th picture (a Manx Radio’s snapshot) is the exhibit of a Manx covidiot trying to practice surfing in his garage to spread the “stay at home” message. In the interview he is so emphatic about the need of staying at home to be safe. If you go out, you die. Listen how he has been totally brainwashed by the government into submission the poor fella. There is absolutely no way one can catch Covid-19 by surfing in the open sea. But even if he were to venture out in Strand St, or even, horribly, commit the thought crime of having a party with his friends, a brief car journey would present a greater risk to his life than Covid-19, considering his very young age. Take that as a poster picture of the damage the government has done to people’s sanity. It is a particularly poignant example because the sea is symbol of freedom (“bring me that horizon” kind of lifting feeling) and what has historically protected the British islands and forged their collective character and psyche. Unfortunately, in the modern age, it does not protect from a disgraceful government corrupted by power and cowardice.
 

 

 

 

[John Wright]

@Filippo

You are factually so far out, every time you pretend to quote facts. Then you try to develop theories and conclusions from your wrong facts...you can see where that takes you?

Then it’s like the bad old days of bloat quoting. 

Try to be concise. Most posters don’t read anything over 10-15, max 20 lines 

[gettafa]

TLDR

[monasqueen]

The stats show that Sweden have a higher rate of deaths per million population than the USA. If you go for herd immunity, many millions more have got to die worldwide, and then there will be no-one left to man industry, etc. 

Pensioners are expendable. It's cheaper without them. Who cares?

Abbotswood is unusual, in that it is the only care home in the IOM that has had a cluster of cases, and they have accounted for most of the IOM cases and deaths. Yet they were always one of the best thought of homes. I've known a couple of people who were residents. You've only got to look at the number of deaths in care homes in other countries to realise that IOM is doing quite well.

For a good example, try looking at New Zealand, which acted fast and hard, and as a consequence has had less deaths than the IOM.

[The Chief]

Filipo negated any points he had to make by quoting the confirmed homophobic racist Tucker Carlson and the conservative cesspool that is Fox news, all his other rants are irrelevant.

[gettafa]

1 hour ago, monasqueen said:

The stats show that Sweden have a higher rate of deaths per million population than the USA. If you go for herd immunity, many millions more have got to die worldwide, and then there will be no-one left to man industry, etc. 

Pensioners are expendable. It's cheaper without them. Who cares?

Well Howard said in one of the earlier addresses to the nation: "There will be deaths".

I wasn't doubting him at all , but - he knew. He was unequivocal. It was basically an admission.

He could have stopped this, or at lest held much of it back, by closing the borders earlier (eg skiing and Cheltenham, as two known cases bringing Covid-19 to the Island).

 

 

 

[The Dog's Dangly Bits]

4 hours ago, gettafa said:

Well Howard said in one of the earlier addresses to the nation: "There will be deaths".

I wasn't doubting him at all , but - he knew. He was unequivocal. It was basically an admission.

He could have stopped this, or at lest held much of it back, by closing the borders earlier (eg skiing and Cheltenham, as two known cases bringing Covid-19 to the Island).

 

 

 

He couldn't really have stopped anything.   The government follow the advice at the time but clearly given you seem to know better you should perhaps give them a shout?  So it is probably more your fault.

 

[gettafa]

I just said he could have stopped it, or rather done more earlier.

"people are going to die, make no mistake". Have a think about that.

There's plenty of people brown bread on the slab just noo.
 

Other jurisdictions clamped down ASAP. Closed borders ASAP. 

We just let people have a wee bit of a holiday before stuff was done.

No room for wishy-washy or "baby steps" as they keep saying - although I appreciate that particular phrase is being used in the post lock down. 

Actually, I couldn't have done much. I am a construction labourer, not a Chief Minister. But I think I see your point. And yes, I obviously see this whole think is a helluva thing to have to handle.

Edited May 3, 2020 by gettafa

[The Dog's Dangly Bits]

But that's the thing - everyone seems to know better in hindsight.  We should have closed the borders 3 months ago.  It was probably here then.

The reality is that the government have done ok.  Nothing is perfect.  The returnees thing is an utter shambles.

But the facts show that, Abbotswood aside, the impact has been minimal in terms of cases and deaths.  Of course no one wants a single death. But people die.

I'm not sure we, as an island, could have done a massively better.  

Hopefully Howard will realise the damage now being done is outweighing the Covid risks amd fall out and he can move things to open back up on island quickly and fully.

[gettafa]

12 hours ago, gettafa said:

 

Other jurisdictions clamped down ASAP. Closed borders ASAP. 

 

ETA:

Except UK of course.

But they are the goodies, and we tend not to criticise UK when it comes to world affairs, just do some natural fawning.

[The Dog's Dangly Bits]

Others didnt close borders asap though.  Plenty are still open.

The difference with the UK is how much of a diverse hub it is for visitors, travel, transit etc.

London is a great example of this.  

Your original point about Big Howard etc is just simply hindsight rubbish really.  It's actually hard to see what could have been done much better, all things considered (aside of the Comis shambles).

[WTF]

howards new speech is nearly ready

 

 

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8292573/Boris-Johnson-admits-UKs-coronavirus-death-toll-appalling.html