quilp Posted July 30, 2020 Share Posted July 30, 2020 2 minutes ago, Mr Newbie said: It seems that it’s really a load of bored petrified pensioners like you who are ignoring the facts. Remind us all again what the facts are. What is fact about the virus. 2 minutes ago, Mr Newbie said: If you’re that scared because of your age or health then you should have shielded yourself since the middle of March not demanded that the whole world stops around you. Who demanded the "whole world stops"? The population was ordered, by government, to take precautionary measures. The whole world didn't stop; key workers still worked, hospitals and emergency services continued at the ready, food was still available so evidentially, you're talking bollocks. 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wrighty Posted July 30, 2020 Share Posted July 30, 2020 6 minutes ago, Mr Newbie said: How is that going to happen. We’ve got entry controls and a requirement to self isolate for two weeks. How is this forecast second wave going to happen here exactly outside of a few isolated cases which will be found and traced within the matter of a day or so? And if we keep them we’ll do fine. But a vocal minority are clamouring for unrestricted travel, no isolation, and believe that swabbing everyone on arrival is the solution. That’s what I’m arguing against right now. 10 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nom de plume Posted July 30, 2020 Share Posted July 30, 2020 12 minutes ago, wrighty said: And if we keep them we’ll do fine. But a vocal minority are clamouring for unrestricted travel, no isolation, and believe that swabbing everyone on arrival is the solution. That’s what I’m arguing against right now. So, we can assume by this rationale, Jersey are making a terrible mistake & death looms large on the horizon. Poor buggers. Can’t you do something for them, before it’s too late? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Out of the blue Posted July 30, 2020 Share Posted July 30, 2020 15 minutes ago, Nom de plume said: So, we can assume by this rationale, Jersey are making a terrible mistake & death looms large on the horizon. Poor buggers. Can’t you do something for them, before it’s too late? Not doom and death, just local SD restrictions and all of the other things that we were so pleased to rid of. Unfortunately it would seem that is the choice we are presented with. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheTeapot Posted July 30, 2020 Share Posted July 30, 2020 15 minutes ago, Nom de plume said: So, we can assume by this rationale, Jersey are making a terrible mistake & death looms large on the horizon. Poor buggers. Can’t you do something for them, before it’s too late? No, we can assume Jersey are taking a calculated risk which may or may not work out. So far it seems to be working alright from the small amount of media reports I've read, and I can understand why they are doing it. It's a very tricky task, and their approach is definitely a riskier one than we are taking. It's definitely a gamble though. Bigger stakes for bigger rewards comes with higher risk. Difficult times, I'm glad I don't have to make any decisions other than whether to bother going to work and getting soaked. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
woolley Posted July 30, 2020 Share Posted July 30, 2020 1 hour ago, wrighty said: New Zealand, widely seen as having managed covid better than most, are still using a ‘Kastle Komis’ style immigration set up as far as I know. https://news.sky.com/story/nz-limits-international-arrivals-to-stop-quarantine-system-being-overwhelmed-12023199 I agree with virtually everything you have posted on this thread, wrighty, but I am getting a little weary about the cheerleading for New Zealand and, indeed, their own smug self-congratulation. Protecting a small, scattered population of 5 million across a large land mass remotely situated in the South Pacific Ocean, with comparatively little international travel is a completely different matter to doing the same in the major world trading economies. The largest city in New Zealand is home to 1.5 million. The population of the entire country is only a little over half that of London alone on a land mass 10% larger than the UK. Yes, to give credit where due, they've done well. But only in the same way as the Isle of Man has done well, and for similar reasons, chief among which is natural isolation. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cambon Posted July 30, 2020 Share Posted July 30, 2020 1 hour ago, Mr Newbie said: There will be something new to worry about soon. Nobody will have any money as the state support is ending and people will start to be laid off in record numbers. The number of people genuinely on state support schemes are now quite low, and basically limited to tourism and entertainment. Everyone else can or has already gone back to work. "Nobody will have any money." Bollocks! 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Filippo Posted July 30, 2020 Author Share Posted July 30, 2020 (edited) 14 hours ago, thesultanofsheight said: People won’t go back to it anyway. Just look at the mess that is the UK with Boris Johnson still trying to pretend that he runs the country when everyone is pretty much doing what they want. You must wear a mask on public transport. Except where you don’t as nobody is empowered to police the rules and compel you to wear a mask. Even shop keepers aren’t going to stop you as even if you turn up to shop stark bollock naked you’re a customer and they haven’t earned a penny in four months. You can go down the pub only if you socially distance, but after 5 pints you don’t socially distance and absolutely nobody is going to do anything about it as you’re spending money and they’re skint as they haven’t been open for months. I’m really glad I liquidated everything as soon as things pretty much recovered in June so I can just sit here and watch everything side down the toilet. The whole thing has lunged into disaster territory now where regardless of what is said people are going to do what they want anyway. If they’re skint they’ll go to work, on a bus, with no mask as they can’t afford to buy a mask. And Britain needs them to do that anyway before it is totally fucked. There is a reason why in the UK such Covid restrictions are left unenforceable, quite deliberately. Top UK politicians and their advisers are smart enough to understand well the criticism of the lockdown and of all the Covid restrictions. They might even think that the lockdown and all the Covid restrictions are dumb; they just went along all that self-inflicted disaster because of crude political necessity. If I were living in England right now, I would go on public transport or shopping without the stupid mask and tell anyone confronting me to call the police. Then, should the police actually turn out (unlikely in most cases) I would tell the police to send me the bill; that I have no problem with paying the fine every day. I would pay the fine every day, if needed. And I wouldn’t give a iota about quarantine rules. Pay that other one-thousand-quids fine as well, since it is all peanuts to me. That is how I would behave in the England; and would get away with it easily. My concern is that on this island, local politicians actually think that they are doing right with the Covid restrictions. That they aren’t that smart and knowledgeable to understand the trade-offs and the other point of view. And then, the authorities that derive from them will be aligned accordingly. That is why I intend to avoid travel off the island until there are quarantine requirements and, if a mask rule were to be introduced in the IOM later on, I am not sure how I would handle it. It would be difficult for me to wear one and difficult not to. I wouldn’t feel that comfortable challenging the authorities here, least because the fines and the other bits of enforcement would be stiffer (as we have seen with the prior version of lockdown where jail terms have been handed out). And it is not only concern about punishment that would put me off from that kind of confrontation; the spirit of community of this place makes one more weary of being ostracised. Even someone as hard-headed as me. Note that there is a whole list of European countries where the authorities saw the masks as doing more harm than good, or very little. Norway, Denmark, Finland, and Sweden of course, all took that position, that masks are not needed or not to be compulsory. In Switzerland they are only obligatory on public transport (only two of the 26 cantons have made them obligatory in shops). Reverting to the Isle of Man, my hope and prayer is that the whole Covid thing with all the damaging policies that it brought are a temporary aberration; that it will be possible to revert to the old normal as soon as sometime next year. Life is actually mostly normal on the island right now; as long as one doesn’t need to travel. The authorities here, helped by the geography, have engineered this kind of temporary equilibrium. At such a huge cost. By the way, below is a place where life isn’t normal right now: that is the corner of Cheapside/Poultry St facing the Bank of England this morning; just saw the pic on the Telegraph and it made me gulp. Have been hanging about there thousands times; during my lunch breaks; as a young, hungry man; at that stage of my life. Normally one of the busiest thoroughfares, it is seems to be all wasteland right now. I could not help attaching it. I hate every bit of the lockdown. Pussy Britain. Edited July 30, 2020 by Filippo 3 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wrighty Posted July 30, 2020 Share Posted July 30, 2020 29 minutes ago, woolley said: I agree with virtually everything you have posted on this thread, wrighty, but I am getting a little weary about the cheerleading for New Zealand and, indeed, their own smug self-congratulation. Protecting a small, scattered population of 5 million across a large land mass remotely situated in the South Pacific Ocean, with comparatively little international travel is a completely different matter to doing the same in the major world trading economies. The largest city in New Zealand is home to 1.5 million. The population of the entire country is only a little over half that of London alone on a land mass 10% larger than the UK. Yes, to give credit where due, they've done well. But only in the same way as the Isle of Man has done well, and for similar reasons, chief among which is natural isolation. I’m certainly not cheerleading them - like you I’m tired of the comparisons and it all being put down to having a female PM etc - I was pointing out that they only continue to do well because of their Draconian border policy along the lines of what we had here that everyone was up in arms about. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
P.K. Posted July 30, 2020 Share Posted July 30, 2020 1 hour ago, woolley said: I agree with virtually everything you have posted on this thread, wrighty, but I am getting a little weary about the cheerleading for New Zealand and, indeed, their own smug self-congratulation. Protecting a small, scattered population of 5 million across a large land mass remotely situated in the South Pacific Ocean, with comparatively little international travel is a completely different matter to doing the same in the major world trading economies. The largest city in New Zealand is home to 1.5 million. The population of the entire country is only a little over half that of London alone on a land mass 10% larger than the UK. Yes, to give credit where due, they've done well. But only in the same way as the Isle of Man has done well, and for similar reasons, chief among which is natural isolation. @woolley What an appalling attitude. Because the three populist pricks Bolsonaro, Johnson and Trump have been killing their citizens with their stupid policies it's ever more important to laud the success stories like NZ to give people in the shit some hope at least. And some folks really are in the shit and hope is all they have. New Zealands PM not only empathises with her citizens but she leads them as well. It's not her fault that her success makes Bolsonaro, Johnson and Trump look really really stupid. But frankly they managed that all by themselves.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Out of the blue Posted July 30, 2020 Share Posted July 30, 2020 41 minutes ago, Filippo said: I too know that street very well and it is a sobering image. It is why I reluctantly now back the travel restrictions. We di not want to go back to this nonsense. I too hate everything to do with lockdown. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
woolley Posted July 30, 2020 Share Posted July 30, 2020 9 minutes ago, P.K. said: @woolley What an appalling attitude. Because the three populist pricks Bolsonaro, Johnson and Trump have been killing their citizens with their stupid policies it's ever more important to laud the success stories like NZ to give people in the shit some hope at least. And some folks really are in the shit and hope is all they have. New Zealands PM not only empathises with her citizens but she leads them as well. It's not her fault that her success makes Bolsonaro, Johnson and Trump look really really stupid. But frankly they managed that all by themselves.... Not rising to your nonsense. How can somebody dealing with an isolated and scattered population of less than 5 million make countries with a combined population of 600 million in highly developed, densely populated and intensely visited economies look stupid? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Wright Posted July 30, 2020 Share Posted July 30, 2020 59 minutes ago, Filippo said: just saw the pic on the Telegraph Says it all, really. Stupid is as stupid reads. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
P.K. Posted July 30, 2020 Share Posted July 30, 2020 2 minutes ago, woolley said: Not rising to your nonsense. How can somebody dealing with an isolated and scattered population of less than 5 million make countries with a combined population of 600 million in highly developed, densely populated and intensely visited economies look stupid? So rather than making excuses for them tell all about how "successful" Bolsonaro, Johnson and Trump have been? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
woolley Posted July 30, 2020 Share Posted July 30, 2020 Just now, P.K. said: So rather than making excuses for them tell all about how "successful" Bolsonaro, Johnson and Trump have been? I'm not making excuses for anyone, in the same way as I'm not congratulating anyone. Success is also the wrong word, because it's too soon to say. It is a long slog and will continue to be. Nobody knows for how long. There is no "right" way to deal with it, because we don't yet know enough about it. There are a few things that we know about the nature of the virus and there are things we know about the nature of civilisation and economies. One of those is that we cannot go into a cave and hide. There has to be compromise. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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