IOM Covid removing restrictions

[Newbie]

9 hours ago, Filippo said:

The Isle of Man, within the context of being an island, had less fatalities than Switzerland on a per capita basis, at the cost of the border closure and the degradation of people lives to which you have been submitted. Making the population-size proportion, IOMG appears to have saved about 50 lives with the border closure and the punishing lockdown (more people jailed than any other jurisdiction). However, half of those 50 souls are now dead anyway; because it is the nature of coronavirus that half of its victims have less than one year to live; thus IOMG lockdown accomplishment so far is more in the ballpark of 25 lives saved.

How can you know that half of the people that would have caught Covid would be dead now anyway? It is not possible to know that without knowing who would have caught it.

You do make some good points, but this casual devaluing of a person's life on the basis that they are old makes you appear callous, and does you no favours. What sort of society is not prepared to protect some of its citizens simply because they are old and are going to die at some point anyway? Where does that logic end. How many anticipated years do you have to have ahead of you before society deems your life worth fighting for?

[Foot Loose]

14 minutes ago, Newbie said:

How can you know that half of the people that would have caught Covid would be dead now anyway? It is not possible to know that without knowing who would have caught it.

You do make some good points, but this casual devaluing of a person's life on the basis that they are old makes you appear callous, and does you no favours. What sort of society is not prepared to protect some of its citizens simply because they are old and are going to die at some point anyway? Where does that logic end. How many anticipated years do you have to have ahead of you before society deems your life worth fighting for?

The same old people are at risk of suffering or dying because of the inevitable degradation to health care brought by the border closure.

Again, one is assumed to be callous just for pointing out to the trade offs of lockdown.

The estimate that half of the victims of Covid would die anyway within one year is coming from the UK government; specifically by a report coauthored by the damn Neil Ferguson last year. Just google it.

With your logic, shall we lock ourselves in our houses every winter because one death from the flu is one too many. Do the young and healthy need to stop living because otherwise they may spread respiratory illnesses? Where do you draw the line?

You are all so unbelievably stupid; or it is something else I cant explain. Where is your logic?

 

[Happier diner]

11 hours ago, Debbie said:

I am sorry, it depends on the virus and the the vaccine.

For illnesses such as smallpox and measles is easily to achieve "sterilising immunity", meaning that once vaccinated you neither catch it nor can possibly transmit to others, indefinitely.

However, for respiratory illnesses typically sterilising immunity is much more difficult to achieve. As concerns corona, realistically it can be achieved only partially and not for a very long period of time (a goal of reducing transmission by 2/3 over a couple of years would seem achievable, with current vaccines, but not much better than that).

Thank you for the explanation and clarification. No need for apology. I should have said for these vaccines.

[Uhtred]

6 hours ago, 2112 said:

HRH The Chief Minister likes these types, the monied and gentrified, ahhh the trickle down economics ........

Any mention of the Chief Cuntstable?

Yes. He’s moved house to number Fut-teen.

[John Wright]

10 hours ago, Filippo said:

I am back in the isle; running in the glens and windy moorlands of its landscape. Not much else to do in my free time, thanks to… you know. The return journey was much less adventurous than the outbound odyssey of early January; an evening flight from Vienna to Heathrow (rescheduled two times), an overnight bus to Lancaster, a bus to Heysham, and the afternoon boat. – I had lost touch with this thread; and thus I skimmed a bit through the last few months to see what I have missed.

Here I have got some legal cookies for John Wright. And useful information for anyone who might be planning a journey to foreign lands in the current circumstances. UK government web pages (1st pic below) state that all international arrivals have to quarantine and pre-book two Covid tests to be released later. The BBC web-page (2nd pic) was much on the same tune. Realising that the UK locator form mainly reflects the rules of England and it is not mutually consistent with the rules of the devolved administrations and other jurisdictions of the British isles, I poured through the details of "The Health Protection (Coronavirus, International Travel) (England) Regulations" in force since last June as a "statutory instrument" (meaning that it was passed with no effective parliament supervision). The text of that "law" (wanting to dignify it with that epithet) is 94 pages long (some relevant excerpts are shown in 3rd and 4th pics below). My conclusion had been that as a transit traveller my UK locator form did not need to specify a UK quarantine address nor the pre-booking (and pre-payment) of the Covid tests.

Unfortunately, when my paperwork was checked at Heathrow, the woman police officer 
going through it, after asking for passport, pre-travel Covid test etc, started going through my UK locator form (which I had on my laptop) much more carefully than I had expected and took the position that I still had to to take the two Covid tests: “every traveller to the UK needs them”. When the argument started, she said "show me the law" in a challenging tone and thus, imagine me holding in front of her face a laptop and scrolling down all of the above mentioned documents and legal stuff while trying to convince her.

Unable to either accept or refute my legal arguments and other justifications, she went first to fetch a colleague at a nearby desk and then a supervisor; the whole argument going on for about a quarter of an hour with the three of them. The supervisor said that the mentioned law was from last June; now superseded by the January instrument requiring the two Covid tests. No I said: the January instrument introduced the requirement of having two Covid tests for all inbound travellers quarantining in England; but it DID NOT abrogate the June legislation, which still stands. Finally, the three of them found a book of police internal guidance on these matters; after a bit of skimming through it, the same police woman started saying "I think he is right…" and her two colleagues nodded it through tacitly. The whole argument with them had not been animose or unpleasant. Before I departed, I had though what a nut I am for spending time on the details of the damn Covid legislation (which I hate and despise all of it). I am capable to prepare my recklessness; the fundamental difference between me and the jet-skier.

Now, to your regret perhaps, I decided to omit all the bit about my dealing with the authorities of this island on my returning here. My reporting of the January trip (cf. my posting to this thread on the 21st of January) had also to be sanitised after some reflection (it omits all the bits of when I had to cut trough the woods to cross an international border). But it was all worth; I had a truly fab month in the Swiss alps and my yearly reboot, like every other winter.

 

 

 

 

 

I am being asked by GD4ELI if I have changed my mind in respect to my first posting to this thread on 22 April 2020. Obviously we know so much more after one year and my arguments have evolved. Also, I have first hand experience from my winter journeys across Europe.

I spent a full month in the Swiss canton of Valais during their second wave and I have seen a different approach than both the UK and this isle. The federal Swiss authorities made clear that their aim is mitigation rather than elimination; and only to the extent of keeping hospital occupancy within capacity. Switzerland shut down the most hedonistic and risky part of their leisure industry for a length of time which is less than the UK and no more than the Isle of Man. Most importantly, it never had the disproportionate restrictions on personal freedoms that have been imposed on us. Practically there have been no restrictions on travel and no restrictions on meeting whom you want to meet. There has been a limit on public gathering above 15, that’s it. The few restrictions on what people can do, mostly coming from the federal government, have not been enforced by the cantonal authorities (or to a minimum extent and reluctantly); only restrictions on business have. The border has always been open. It is the only European country in which I have been able to come and go without checks or any question asked. I never saw the demented "stay at home message" drummed incessantly into people ears as if the recipient were too retarded to understand it. Obviously, the ski resorts would have not been open otherwise; I was there doing winter sports...

You would then expect Switzerland to have had higher Covid mortality than the kind of countries that tried to keep people prisoners of their homes. But Switzerland has had less fatalities on a per-capita basis than both the UK and three of its four neighbouring countries. Only Austria had less fatalities, but not by much. Germany, France, Italy and Austria all had strict limitations on what people can do analogous to the UK, and they have nothing to show for it. It is my opinion that those restriction have been imposed on us in part for political reasons, in part for ignorance and stupidity; but they achieved little or nothing. There are academic studies from the time of the first wave that support this point of view quantitatively.

The Isle of Man, within the context of being an island, had less fatalities than Switzerland on a per capita basis, at the cost of the border closure and the degradation of people lives to which you have been submitted. Making the population-size proportion, IOMG appears to have saved about 50 lives with the border closure and the punishing lockdown (more people jailed than any other jurisdiction). However, half of those 50 souls are now dead anyway; because it is the nature of coronavirus that half of its victims have less than one year to live; thus IOMG lockdown accomplishment so far is more in the ballpark of 25 lives saved. Please raise your hands those who think that the border closure and the other lockdown consequences, which include the depletion of government coffers, won’t cause many more than 25 premature deaths over time.

When I left the island with the ERJ-145, the back of the cabin had a group of elderly travelling exclusively for medical reasons. I overheard them complaining about the many difficulties they had repeatedly experienced with trying to obtain medical tests and treatments; their inconveniences and deprivations from having to isolate after ever return journey from vising an UK hospital. Neither Australia nor New Zealand have to send their patients overseas for routine treatments; this little island is not remotely self-sufficient as concerns its health care needs. It is also devoid of any private hospital where tests for suspected conditions could be carried out when the NHS is not available. There are so many illnesses other than Covid. One in 7 women will fall ill with breast cancer, one in 8 men with prostate cancer, at a certain point of their lives. Even in the blinkered balance sheet that assigns zero value to individuality and personal choice (not my balance sheet) if the only purpose is keeping us living for longer, the focus should be on the preemptive diagnosis and treatment of those unfortunate illnesses that have a statistical chance to kill us soon or later. Try to get an MRI on this island for anything rather than the urgent diagnosis an illness whose symptoms have already progressed to the stage where they can’t be ignored anymore. Each MRI machine has a starting price of one million USD; absolute peanuts for a government that can afford to spend hundreds of millions on lockdown.

The British Isles have the lowest healthy-life expectancy than the whole of Western Europe (68 years to be precise; the number of years that one can expect to live a life free of crippling illnesses in these islands). The actions of our government are making sure that these isles will stay that way: a middling income country with inhabitants having unhealthy lifestyles and prone to precocious illnesses. It is naive to trust the government with our own health and general wellbeing. Boris Johnson, Howard Quayle, David Ashford are such a poor example of healthy lifestyle that it is a joke having them mandating health activities to anyone.

Switzerland is by no means the only example of country respectful of civil liberties. From mid March wide swathes of America have reopened and are now almost back to business as usual. Texas governor has bragged that his state is now "open 100 per cent" (Texas never really enforced Covid restrictions on people; no one there ever got fined for not wearing a stupid mask). In Florida, students have been packing on beaches for the past month and families are have been entertaining themselves in Disney World. This laissez faire doesn’t appear to have made much difference as concerns the overall severity of the pandemic in respect to those other US states such as California and New York that have had some stringent restrictions and enforcement (although, no US state has been as Covid fixated as the British).

The Isle of Man has jailed about 60 people for flouting its strict Covid restrictions. That is the per-capita equivalent of the UK jailing 47,000 or communist China jailing one million! When last January Howard Quayle was asked about Covid enforcement in the island during its ITV interview (the one that he was so keen to arrange) he just lied and said that 12 had been jailed (he actually availed himself of a circumlocution, but anyone who doesn’t regularly read IOMToday or this forum must have understood the figure of 12). He also stated brazenly (or delusionally) that his policies have 99% support on this island. That sickening ITV interview was uploaded on this forum; it is there for you to make up your own mind. Not the first time we hear open lies from him and Ashford anyway.

 

 

During the month I spent skiing I did not see anyone regulating their speed down the slopes due to some vague concern that if a rescue were to be needed a Covid spread event may occur. Berating a runner for taking care of himself by branding him as "selfish" says more about you than the runner. Why would you want to impose your lifestyle choices on others? Anyone with half brain understands your inner motivations. Actually, the imposition of pointless lifestyle limitations on others is too idiotic even for someone who is naturally mean. Only the very old, and afflicted by enough cognitive degeneration as to lack basic self-awareness, would make that kind of statements with the pretense of offering some kind of wisdom.

You know some of my long-term US health care investments have an exciting pipeline of new drugs targeting old age cognitive degeneration; for instance Biogen’s Aducanumab, Eli Lilly’s Donanemab and yet unnamed drugs under trial. Since your are heading to those conditions quite soon (if not already there), it may be of some comfort to know that there might be remedies. Unfortunately, the expected costs of any of those pills is in the region of USD 50,000 per year per patient; nothing that looks like an affordable expense for UK NHS or IOM NHS. The consequence of imposing lockdown on others who might have had better things to do.

 

 

 

 

TL:DNR

[WindJammer]

5 hours ago, Marion Costel said:

For the isle, loss of faith in its institutions could mean a lot of young people leaving and degradation of the livelihood of those who are left. This is not a rich versus poor juxtaposition.

 

That’s interesting. I’m dealing with about 5 families leaving the island at the moment. The common theme is that they don’t care about covid in the UK. The border controls have separated them from family and friends now for over a year and that’s it for them it’s about quality of life not being locked away from life.They’d rather be near family than live locked away from covid for what most seem to think will be the best part of another year yet the way the IOM is going. The mini property boom we’re having seems to have meant that most have found it quite quick and easy to sell up so they’re off. There’s a lot quietly going on that is counter to the general bubble mentality here. 

[Newbie]

30 minutes ago, Foot Loose said:

The same old people are at risk of suffering or dying because of the inevitable degradation to health care brought by the border closure.

Again, one is assumed to be callous just for pointing out to the trade offs of lockdown.

The estimate that half of the victims of Covid would die anyway within one year is coming from the UK government; specifically by a report coauthored by the damn Neil Ferguson last year. Just google it.

With your logic, shall we lock ourselves in our houses every winter because one death from the flu is one too many. Do the young and healthy need to stop living because otherwise they may spread respiratory illnesses? Where do you draw the line?

You are all so unbelievably stupid; or it is something else I cant explain. Where is your logic?

 

If you read my post I said that Filippo made some good points. However, I happen to believe that all citizens are deserving of society's protection when they need it, and the suggestion that 25 lives were not worth saving because they were going to die anyway is not one that I agree with. If you don't agree with me on that, fair enough, but perhaps you could tell me at what point a person becomes unworthy of protection. Is it purely down to age, and if so, what age? Or should we factor in other things as well such as disability, or some random measure of how much we feel they are likely to contribute to society?

I really do not know how that makes you think that my logic means that we should lock ourselves away every winter. I have never mentioned any such thing. You are making assumptions about me that you are not in a position to make.

At the height of a pandemic that was killing a high percentage of the elderly people affected, something had to be done to protect them. In the longer run, there are better ways of protecting them as we have seen, such as vaccination, but that takes a while to be effective. As an aside, and since you mentioned it, why do you suppose we vaccinate elderly and vulnerable people against flu (not that the effects of flu are in any way comparable to Covid). 

Society has to respond to what is in front of it at the time, and that will obviously change as the situation changes. That requires finesse and balance. For your own sanity, I would suggest you try to take a more nuanced approach.

 

[doc.fixit]

Fillipo you really are an outspoken type of fellow. I did not impose my views on anyone by suggesting that some folk who take exercise to excess are selfish and yes, it does reflect what type of person I am. One who is concerned for other folk's welfare and the way that some people can affect that.

In my opinion, some of your views are very accurate whilst other of your views reflect what type of person you are. I would not like to be like you or have a lifestyle like you but everyone to their own, that is your privilege.

Welcome home.

[Cassie2]

Apparently, the prohibitions on meeting indoors do not apply to MANX CARE?

Of all people? F.F.S.                   

https://mobile.twitter.com/michaeljosem/status/1379479971211657218/photo/1?ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.manxforums.com%2Fforums%2Findex.php%3Fapp%3Dcoremodule%3Dsystemcontroller%3Dembedurl%3Dhttps%3A%2F%2Ftwitter.com%2FMichaelJosem%2Fstatus%2F1379479971211657218

Edited April 7, 2021 by Cassie2

[P.K.]

1 hour ago, Newbie said:

How can you know that half of the people that would have caught Covid would be dead now anyway? It is not possible to know that without knowing who would have caught it.

The 50% was a guesstimate bandied about.

Research concluded the number was between 5% and 15%.

Clearly it's not an exact science mind.

[Banker]

29 minutes ago, P.K. said:

The 50% was a guesstimate bandied about.

Research concluded the number was between 5% and 15%.

Clearly it's not an exact science mind.

Similar estimates for number of deaths caused by lack of treatment for illnesses because health facilities restrictions.

[John Wright]

39 minutes ago, Cassie2 said:

Apparently, the prohibitions on meeting indoors do not apply to MANX CARE?

Of all people? F.F.S.                   

https://mobile.twitter.com/michaeljosem/status/1379479971211657218/photo/1?ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.manxforums.com%2Fforums%2Findex.php%3Fapp%3Dcoremodule%3Dsystemcontroller%3Dembedurl%3Dhttps%3A%2F%2Ftwitter.com%2FMichaelJosem%2Fstatus%2F1379479971211657218

Have you read the regulations, before posting. As a lawyer you should have.

Where are workplace meetings made illegal or prohibited?

As long as they’re socially distanced and mask wearing, I, for one, am glad that the Manx Care management team are cracking on.

The photo perspective can be deceptive, especially about depth, and thus distance.

These are employees, senior medical staff, departmental heads, who are going into the hospital and working. No different to Dr’s, nurses, radiographers, phlebotomists.

You, you’re just angry. Josem is just a ( nasty right wing ) opportunist who seems to have no common sense.

Dont forget. For this meeting, during Covid lock down there will have been a risk assessment. It will have taken into account distancing, masks, and the fact that most, if not all, hospital workers will have been vaccinated ( both doses ).

[pongo]

48 minutes ago, WindJammer said:

That’s interesting. I’m dealing with about 5 families leaving the island at the moment.

What is it about 5?

 

 

On 5/2/2017 at 9:55 PM, hboy said:

staffed by about 5 people

 

On 5/22/2019 at 9:29 PM, thesultanofsheight said:

He has a following of about 5 people

 

On 5/5/2020 at 12:43 PM, Manx Expat said:

I’ve spoken to about 5 people

 

On 9/2/2020 at 7:46 PM, thesultanofsheight said:

I know about 5 people who have been made unemployed 

 

On 10/19/2020 at 9:03 PM, thesultanofsheight said:

Knows about 5 people in his social circle (all around forties to mid forties) who have had breakdowns in the last 2 months

etc

Edited April 7, 2021 by pongo

[Andy Onchan]

6 hours ago, Marion Costel said:

 

 

This is not a rich versus poor juxtaposition.

 

But it is in the broader sense.

[Banker]

Moderna vaccine being rolled out today in Wales , hopefully we’ll get our share soon & won’t sit on it for too long 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-56657038

Edited April 7, 2021 by Banker