IOM Covid removing restrictions

[Happier diner]

4 hours ago, John Wright said:

They, EZY, aren’t going to put on weekly flights to foreign parts, for a short season,. Neither are Ryanair, Wizz or any other budget.

That what exactly my point. Yes, sure, one off charters are possible if someone has the guts to do it. Scheduled flights is a different matter. The green list is too transient for the big players to bother adapting week by week. 

[Gladys]

8 hours ago, John Wright said:

The real problem is there is no acceptable answer to your question. Life is full of risk, from birth to death, from waking to sleeping, going up and down the stairs, going out, catching a bus, driving, meeting people, travelling.

We don’t stop people from doing those activities because we try snd reduce, but not always minimise, risk. And we’ve become enured to most risk at the levels it now is, after a hundred years of fatal accident legislation, health & safety, and 75 years of the NHS, improved health care and reduced mortality.

The damage caused by lock downs, travel bans, economic restriction, social distancing has to be balanced against the actual risk now we have vaccinations.

I happen to think that the UK and IOM de-escalation is about right. I’m not worried about 2, 3, 4 weeks difference between the IOM and either CI. It’s like the delay in starting vaccine admin. We’ve caught up. A few weeks will make no difference.

yes, some people are more gung ho, at one end of the spectrum, others are ultra cautious. The opprobrium on here, towards either end, doesn’t help. We now need reconciliation to move forward together. It’s going to take time for us all.

The real problem is that it was a booby trapped question. 

On a personal level, you would expect the answer to be no death is acceptable, something we have to live with, but not acceptable nonetheless.  To answer giving any figure at all would result in the retort that you were cavalier and it was tantamount to condemning people to death.

On a national or international level, the answer becomes more abstract but the figure is more likely to be what deaths can be expected given all the measures in place, the actual figure will hit that target, fall short or exceed.

All in all, it was a pretty obvious attempt to trap someone who could be shown up by PK as a heartless bastard. Not many fell for his shallow, superficial and pseudo-intellectual way of debating.  

I am pretty sure he has me on ignore, so the comments above will not hit the target  sadly. 

[snowman]

On 5/6/2021 at 10:10 PM, Utah 01 said:

Couldn't agree more - but here's the difference:

Snowdonia - 6 million people plus within 2 hours drive; cost - half a tank of petrol.

Isle of Man - also with an immediate, proximate catchment of similar numbers (if not more) BUT - a 2 1/2 to 4 1/2 ferry journey with little change from £250.

Now, you're (hypothetically) living in Chester - which one do you go to?

What about the number of people who fly to Jersey or Newquay...

 

....the point is, if the island had a decent tourist offering the economy would be bouncing due to the inbound visitors and it would also encourage people to move to the island having visited.

Edited May 8, 2021 by snowman

[trmpton]

8 hours ago, Gladys said:

The real problem is that it was a booby trapped question. 

On a personal level, you would expect the answer to be no death is acceptable, something we have to live with, but not acceptable nonetheless.  To answer giving any figure at all would result in the retort that you were cavalier and it was tantamount to condemning people to death.

On a national or international level, the answer becomes more abstract but the figure is more likely to be what deaths can be expected given all the measures in place, the actual figure will hit that target, fall short or exceed.

All in all, it was a pretty obvious attempt to trap someone who could be shown up by PK as a heartless bastard. Not many fell for his shallow, superficial and pseudo-intellectual way of debating.  

I am pretty sure he has me on ignore, so the comments above will not hit the target  sadly. 

Agree with all of the above other than the bit about the trap.

I wasn't trapped, I knew exactly what was going on and answered accordingly.

Honestly my answer of 2 a week was a middle of the road answer.  PK and others won't like it but it does need context and as heartless as it makes me I don't value all lives the same in this instance.

Should the whole island shut down to avoid 2 deaths a week of young, previously perfectly fit people in their 30s with young kids who have their whole lives to lead? Personally I would say no, make it 5 and I might have a different opinion.

Should the island shut down to avoid the deaths of 2 people a week in their 80s who already have a poor current quality of life due to ill health but had lived fulfilling and meaningful lives for 60 plus years.  Hell no.

Does that make me heartless? I would say it makes me realistic and most elderly folk I know would agree.  The majority didn't ever believe it was reasonable to expect the young to give up so much to protect them.  Most I know were vocal about the fact they would rather take their chances than be isolated from family.

I really don't see it as relevant anymore anyway.  The vaccine is the best we are going to get short term with regard to protection so we must crack on and give those who don't want to I tentage with the rest of society who want to live full and meaningful loves the option to isolate.  Measures that were appropriate even 3 months ago aren't now.

Take my Mum as an example.  She has grandkids and kids off island she hasn't seen for over a year.  She has lots of friends and family on island she was kept from for weeks on three separate occasions.  She has a son in law who lost a business.  She has a son who had near enough a full on breakdown.  She has completely lost her confidence behind the wheel and has lost a lot of confidence in general social settings.  She has grandkids who missed exams, missed long periods of education, who have lost jobs and one who missed his opportunity to become under 18s national champion in a sport and possibly make a name for himself leading g to a career.

She is over 80.  She is very vocal about the fact she doesn't believe all the above was warranted to protect her and understands that no other members of her immediate family were really at risk.

She is bitter that what is probably one of her last years on earth was wasted.  Most (not all) of her friends think the same)

[John Wright]

1 hour ago, trmpton said:

Agree with all of the above other than the bit about the trap.

I wasn't trapped, I knew exactly what was going on and answered accordingly.

Honestly my answer of 2 a week was a middle of the road answer.  PK and others won't like it but it does need context and as heartless as it makes me I don't value all lives the same in this instance.

Should the whole island shut down to avoid 2 deaths a week of young, previously perfectly fit people in their 30s with young kids who have their whole lives to lead? Personally I would say no, make it 5 and I might have a different opinion.

Should the island shut down to avoid the deaths of 2 people a week in their 80s who already have a poor current quality of life due to ill health but had lived fulfilling and meaningful lives for 60 plus years.  Hell no.

Does that make me heartless? I would say it makes me realistic and most elderly folk I know would agree.  The majority didn't ever believe it was reasonable to expect the young to give up so much to protect them.  Most I know were vocal about the fact they would rather take their chances than be isolated from family.

I really don't see it as relevant anymore anyway.  The vaccine is the best we are going to get short term with regard to protection so we must crack on and give those who don't want to I tentage with the rest of society who want to live full and meaningful loves the option to isolate.  Measures that were appropriate even 3 months ago aren't now.

Take my Mum as an example.  She has grandkids and kids off island she hasn't seen for over a year.  She has lots of friends and family on island she was kept from for weeks on three separate occasions.  She has a son in law who lost a business.  She has a son who had near enough a full on breakdown.  She has completely lost her confidence behind the wheel and has lost a lot of confidence in general social settings.  She has grandkids who missed exams, missed long periods of education, who have lost jobs and one who missed his opportunity to become under 18s national champion in a sport and possibly make a name for himself leading g to a career.

She is over 80.  She is very vocal about the fact she doesn't believe all the above was warranted to protect her and understands that no other members of her immediate family were really at risk.

She is bitter that what is probably one of her last years on earth was wasted.  Most (not all) of her friends think the same)

I’ve no views. I wouldn’t put a figure on it. Is increasing mortality by 10% ( 2 a week ) acceptable?  That’s a big increase, whatever their ages. 25% ( 5 a week ) would be a disaster. 

No other cause of death hits 10%.
 

in 14 months we’ve had 1600 cases and 29 cases. Your “acceptable”, assuming a death outcome of catching Covid remains the same, seems to imply about 5000-6000 cases a year.

[Gladys]

1 hour ago, trmpton said:

Agree with all of the above other than the bit about the trap.

I wasn't trapped, I knew exactly what was going on and answered accordingly.

Honestly my answer of 2 a week was a middle of the road answer.  PK and others won't like it but it does need context and as heartless as it makes me I don't value all lives the same in this instance.

Should the whole island shut down to avoid 2 deaths a week of young, previously perfectly fit people in their 30s with young kids who have their whole lives to lead? Personally I would say no, make it 5 and I might have a different opinion.

Should the island shut down to avoid the deaths of 2 people a week in their 80s who already have a poor current quality of life due to ill health but had lived fulfilling and meaningful lives for 60 plus years.  Hell no.

Does that make me heartless? I would say it makes me realistic and most elderly folk I know would agree.  The majority didn't ever believe it was reasonable to expect the young to give up so much to protect them.  Most I know were vocal about the fact they would rather take their chances than be isolated from family.

I really don't see it as relevant anymore anyway.  The vaccine is the best we are going to get short term with regard to protection so we must crack on and give those who don't want to I tentage with the rest of society who want to live full and meaningful loves the option to isolate.  Measures that were appropriate even 3 months ago aren't now.

Take my Mum as an example.  She has grandkids and kids off island she hasn't seen for over a year.  She has lots of friends and family on island she was kept from for weeks on three separate occasions.  She has a son in law who lost a business.  She has a son who had near enough a full on breakdown.  She has completely lost her confidence behind the wheel and has lost a lot of confidence in general social settings.  She has grandkids who missed exams, missed long periods of education, who have lost jobs and one who missed his opportunity to become under 18s national champion in a sport and possibly make a name for himself leading g to a career.

She is over 80.  She is very vocal about the fact she doesn't believe all the above was warranted to protect her and understands that no other members of her immediate family were really at risk.

She is bitter that what is probably one of her last years on earth was wasted.  Most (not all) of her friends think the same)

So sorry trmpton, those are all very real impacts. 

It has been tough for very many, mainly arising from the measures rather than the disease.  I had posted at length about the challenges and sad consequences I have seen,  but decided against it. 

Suffice to say, I have not known anyone who has died from covid and only one who has had the disease, but they have been severely impacted.   I know many who have lost  relatives without being able to see them in their final days, not been able to attend funerals, faced mental issues with a kind of Stockholm syndrome, or lack of social interaction, challenges of homeschooling while keeping a job during redundancies, etc. 

But the fact is PK set what he thought was a cunning trap so that if anyone had the heartless gall to put a figure to his question, he could then subject them to his belligerent belittling that he is so good at, while underlining his Guardian-reading social conscience and virtue signalling.  He may also throw in some irrelevant and misunderstood  pseudo-science learnt on middle management courses while working for a US multinational. 

But you bravely stood up to take one for the team! 

Heartfelt best wishes to you, I hope things start an upward turn for you and your family soon. 

[trmpton]

3 minutes ago, John Wright said:

I’ve no views. I wouldn’t put a figure on it. Is increasing mortality by 10% ( 2 a week ) acceptable?  That’s a big increase, whatever their ages. 25% ( 5 a week ) would be a disaster. 

No other cause of death hits 10%.
 

in 14 months we’ve had 1600 cases and 29 cases. Your “acceptable”, assuming a death outcome of catching Covid remains the same, seems to imply about 5000-6000 cases a year.

To me it is if the alternative is lockdown and closed borders.  Not relevant anymore though with vaccines.

As an aside.  I bet we weren't far off 5000 cases last year if we had tested every person every week.

[John Wright]

16 minutes ago, Gladys said:

So sorry trmpton, those are all very real impacts. 

It has been tough for very many, mainly arising from the measures rather than the disease.  I had posted at length about the challenges and sad consequences I have seen,  but decided against it. 

Suffice to say, I have not known anyone who has died from covid and only one who has had the disease, but they have been severely impacted.   I know many who have lost  relatives without being able to see them in their final days, not been able to attend funerals, faced mental issues with a kind of Stockholm syndrome, or lack of social interaction, challenges of homeschooling while keeping a job during redundancies, etc. 

But the fact is PK set what he thought was a cunning trap so that if anyone had the heartless gall to put a figure to his question, he could then subject them to his belligerent belittling that he is so good at, while underlining his Guardian-reading social conscience and virtue signalling.  He may also throw in some irrelevant and misunderstood  pseudo-science learnt on middle management courses while working for a US multinational. 

But you bravely stood up to take one for the team! 

Heartfelt best wishes to you, I hope things start an upward turn for you and your family soon. 

I think you over attribute PK. He’s just blinkered. It sometimes seems that he spews a stream of consciousness with no real idea where he’s going.

Its sometimes like reading Joyce, a soliloquy from Ulysses, but with punctuation and without any literary merit. But equally hard to make sense of.

[trmpton]

3 minutes ago, Gladys said:

So sorry trmpton, those are all very real impacts. 

It has been tough for very many, mainly arising from the measures rather than the disease.  I had posted at length about the challenges and sad consequences I have seen,  but decided against it. 

Suffice to say, I have not known anyone who has died from covid and only one who has had the disease, but they have been severely impacted.   I know many who have lost  relatives without being able to see them in their final days, not been able to attend funerals, faced mental issues with a kind of Stockholm syndrome, or lack of social interaction, challenges of homeschooling while keeping a job during redundancies, etc. 

But the fact is PK set what he thought was a cunning trap so that if anyone had the heartless gall to put a figure to his question, he could then subject them to his belligerent belittling that he is so good at, while underlining his Guardian-reading social conscience and virtue signalling.  He may also throw in some irrelevant and misunderstood  pseudo-science learnt on middle management courses while working for a US multinational. 

But you bravely stood up to take one for the team! 

Heartfelt best wishes to you, I hope things start an upward turn for you and your family soon. 

Cheers but we are fine.

We haven't really had it any worse than most other family's I know.  Most of the details I posted apply to huge numbers of people.

I have friends who lost parents in Abbotswood and know a few who died in the UK.  I know of probably 50 positive cases here and more in my wider circle worldwide.  Other than thr very vulnerable ones who unfortunately died I only know a handful who noticed they had it at all.  None needed treatment and none have any long term effects.

[John Wright]

1 minute ago, trmpton said:

To me it is if the alternative is lockdown and closed borders.  Not relevant anymore though with vaccines.

As an aside.  I bet we weren't far off 5000 cases last year if we had tested every person every week.

Closing the borders at the right point can avoid or limit lock down. Even with our unforced errors we were lockdown free for 9 of the last 14 months.

Not sure about your figures. It’s pretty clear we were community Covid free during the second 6 months of 2020. Half our figures seem to have been in isolation after travel.

[trmpton]

42 minutes ago, John Wright said:

Closing the borders at the right point can avoid or limit lock down. Even with our unforced errors we were lockdown free for 9 of the last 14 months.

Not sure about your figures. It’s pretty clear we were community Covid free during the second 6 months of 2020. Half our figures seem to have been in isolation after travel.

Opening the borders to late or not enough can cause immense suffering and hardship.

Personally I think they were a bit late closing them when we didn't know what we were dealing with, and far, far too slow relaxing them and putting proper controls in place rather than an arbitrary closure.  Family being refused travel last summer and for most of this year so far was awful and unnecessary.

Thankfully all that nonsense is behind us.  couple more weeks and things are workable for most people , for British Travel at least.

I would give the Manx Government response overall a 4 out of 10 with my key words for them to Google for future use  being - proactive, compassion, communication, confidence, leadership, trust, adaptability, clarity, egocentric and opportunity.

As awful as this whole thing has been it was a massive opportunity for a small jurisdiction with no land borders to apply all those traits to become the envy of the world and really showcase what the Isle of Man is all about attracting positive PR and new business and residents while making us all feel safe and glad to live here.

They screwed it on a monumental scale and lost a lot of residents and businesses as a result. 

Edited May 9, 2021 by trmpton

[thommo2010]

 

Looking positive 

 

https://news.sky.com/story/covid-19-britain-will-be-free-of-the-coronavirus-by-august-says-outgoing-vaccine-taskforce-chief-12300112

[P.K.]

1 hour ago, John Wright said:

I think you over attribute PK. He’s just blinkered. It sometimes seems that he spews a stream of consciousness with no real idea where he’s going.

Its sometimes like reading Joyce, a soliloquy from Ulysses, but with punctuation and without any literary merit. But equally hard to make sense of.

On a par with James Joyce.

Yeah, I'll take that. Thanks.

Better that than a Gyles Brandreth or a Claire Berenice Rayner....

As I said, I feel a bit sorry for those having to make thse decisions who are clearly out of their depth. Hence from a few days ago:

On 5/6/2021 at 11:44 AM, P.K. said:

Not easy being Howard though, is it...?

 

[pongo]

8 hours ago, snowman said:

if the island had a decent tourist offering the economy would be bouncing

The economy is doing pretty well.

But that's a different issue. Do you have any ideas how to build a decent tourist industry?

Edited May 9, 2021 by pongo

[pongo]

What would attract people here in the years ahead?