IOM Covid removing restrictions

[Cambon]

14 minutes ago, TheTeapot said:

Oh, I see. I don't know how much you know, but here's my simplified explanation. 

The problem is that for adults, because this is a novel virus, they haven't had childhood infections for it, so the body hasn't built up over time a resilient response through the T/B cell actions. 

The vaccine trains your immune system to respond to something new, and floods your system with these new antibodies. These are a temporary measure, float around your blood for a few months keeping guard and then retire. That's the waning bit. But now, your body is primed to respond, and a new infection will trigger the memory cells to send out the troops again. So the waning effect is seen most in your likelihood of a symptomatic infection  a few months post vaccination, cos the antibodies aren't immediately there anymore, the evidence shows that you are still unlikely to get a severe infection because the memory cells that the vaccine has trained kick into action. It's just a bit slower than having your blood full of antibodies.

The other human coronaviruses all act like this, regular exposure in childhood (its believed all 4 operate on a roughly 3 year cycle) primes you for the rest of your life. 

In answer to your question, when, I don't know, couple of years for everyone to have got infected I guess. And some time to convince those who think this is the worst virus ever to get over themselves.

Your decscription is very good. This is why only the older and vulnerable are getting boosters (at the moment). It is also probably why many are having adverse reactions to the booster, because the T cells are kicking in. 

[TheTeapot]

13 minutes ago, Cambon said:

It is also probably why many are having adverse reactions to the booster, because the T cells are kicking in. 

You're going to have to explain this oddness because that doesn't fit with my understanding.

[wrighty]

10 minutes ago, TheTeapot said:

You're going to have to explain this oddness because that doesn't fit with my understanding.

I think your understanding is pretty good. 
 

Depends on what Cambon means by adverse reaction.  If it’s the generic, relatively mild flu-like illness (like I got) it’s just proof that the vaccine is doing something immunological rather than being a non-reactive 5G chip or something. 

We feel ill largely because of our immune response. IL-1, used to be called ‘Endogenous Pyrogen’ and is a molecule released by certain cells, including T4 cells, during the immune reaction.  It raises our temperature a bit, and makes us feel ill, while doing its job in stimulating other cells to start making antibodies etc. So he’s right, a bit, in that the vaccine is stimulating T cells which will then go on to stimulate other cells to do their thing. 
 

My immunology knowledge is well out of date, but I did do a separate degree in it in addition to general med school learning. There will be loads more molecules and cell types known about these days, but I’m pretty confident that the gist of what I’m saying is right. 

[TheTeapot]

19 minutes ago, wrighty said:

I think your understanding is pretty good. 
 

Thank you.

I would very much like to talk to people about the similarities with the other coronaviruses, the importance of transmission in the young and the clear negatives of supression. It isn't being discussed enough, even though its obvious that's what the situation is. But everyone thinks I'm nuts, getting attacked from both hoaxers and doomers on twitter and reddit for expressing it.

 

Edited October 29, 2021 by TheTeapot

[Gladys]

1 hour ago, TheTeapot said:

Thank you.

I would very much like to talk to people about the similarities with the other coronaviruses, the importance of transmission in the young and the clear negatives of supression. It isn't being discussed enough, even though its obvious that's what the situation is. But everyone thinks I'm nuts, getting attacked from both hoaxers and doomers on twitter and reddit for expressing it.

 

Yes, but you just want all the children to die!😉

Actually, a good summary, thank you.  It makes sense and perhaps is a good reason now to back off on  the public obsession with infections, better to focus on vax and treating those badly affected by infection.  I saw  headline yesterday that there may be a super drug for treatment. 

 

[Cambon]

2 hours ago, wrighty said:

I think your understanding is pretty good. 
 

Depends on what Cambon means by adverse reaction.  If it’s the generic, relatively mild flu-like illness (like I got) it’s just proof that the vaccine is doing something immunological rather than being a non-reactive 5G chip or something. 

We feel ill largely because of our immune response. IL-1, used to be called ‘Endogenous Pyrogen’ and is a molecule released by certain cells, including T4 cells, during the immune reaction.  It raises our temperature a bit, and makes us feel ill, while doing its job in stimulating other cells to start making antibodies etc. So he’s right, a bit, in that the vaccine is stimulating T cells which will then go on to stimulate other cells to do their thing. 
 

My immunology knowledge is well out of date, but I did do a separate degree in it in addition to general med school learning. There will be loads more molecules and cell types known about these days, but I’m pretty confident that the gist of what I’m saying is right. 

That is basically what I was going to say. When one contracts a virus naturally, the load is tiny at first. Small amounts breathed in, etc. Being injected with a relatively enormous amount of "virus" triggers the body to launch a massive and immediate immune response, and that is what makes you feel unwell. 

[Happier diner]

1 hour ago, Cambon said:

That is basically what I was going to say. When one contracts a virus naturally, the load is tiny at first. Small amounts breathed in

Not necessarily. What if you were sleeping with someone infected or sharing a house will other infected persons? The load can vary enormously. That's why so many health workers were ill in the first wave.

Also the vaccine is not even a 'virus', whatever a 'virus' is. It's a harmless thing that looks like real actual virus to our immune systems. Not aware that it's an enormous dose, but because it can't to propagate like the real thing there needs to be just sufficient to trigger an immune response.

[Danoo]

3 hours ago, TheTeapot said:

Thank you.

I would very much like to talk to people about the similarities with the other coronaviruses, the importance of transmission in the young and the clear negatives of supression. It isn't being discussed enough, even though its obvious that's what the situation is. But everyone thinks I'm nuts, getting attacked from both hoaxers and doomers on twitter and reddit for expressing it.

 

I think you have hit the nail on the head.

No-one wants to have a debate about it. It's like Brexit, Trump etc... We have created a binary society whereby you are either for or against something, there is no grey area for a genuine discussion. In literally everything. 

I overheard a discussion the other week while minding my own business having a coffee in Costa at the sea terminal. A group of what I presumed were students, young and naive, saying it''s not good enough to not be racist anymore, you had to be anti-racist, which reminds me of this topic. Discussion is not allowed. You are either an anti-vaxxer or a big pharma advocate, for daring to have an opinion which isn't at one extreme of the other. 

[TheTeapot]

This is an example of what I'm up against when explaining my view

Quote

Politely suggest you research official science & data. The view that widespread infection is good is based on misinformation & fringe science. Consensus is herd immunity with Delta is impossible & long term health damage even for mild cases in vaxed is heavily documented.

How are you supposed to get through to these people? 

[TheTeapot]

1 minute ago, Roxanne said:

With respect TP, you can’t. 

If you have something of value to say then choose to say it to an open door. I and others get a huge amount from your posts on here. Personally I’ve learned a lot from your posts and I’m open to learning more.

Talking to a closed door is a waste of your time and energy.

Save your energy for those who want to learn. 

I learn every day. 

It's those who cling to April 2020 and refuse to see anything positive who I'm having a hard time with, and continue to be concerned that they are going to force their way on my son, and all children. There is a concerted push by those who feel that way to get kids masked up next term. It's insane, and complete denial of realty. 

I'd genuinely like to talk my theories through with someone who understands things, but as soon as you start talking about infecting kids the shutters go down and that's it.

I think the doomers hate me, I'm certainly blocked or muted by a few of them now, and I'm not even trying to be shitty to them. I'd just like them to see things a bit clearer, got shut down months ago for talking about an endemic situation, but some of those who shut me down then now grudgingly agree, but they'll never admit it.

Apparently, a view of vaccinate adults and open up is 'psychotic'.

For balance I have been taking attacks from antivaxxers and hoaxers too.

 

[Danoo]

1 hour ago, Roxanne said:

But Danoo, aren’t you guilty of calling anyone who disagrees with you a ‘doommonger?  Where does that fit in your narrative of above? 

Not at all. I do think a lot of people on this island verge on the overly negative and will call them out on it, if necessary, though. I prefer my glass half full. 

[TheTeapot]

1 minute ago, offshoremanxman said:

I’d say that’s a positive to be honest as it saves you blocking them. It’s awful to follow and one or two of the main Twitter doomers clearly post on here as well as it’s often the same stuff on rinse and repeat. I’m surprised by one or two of them having had time for some of their views in normal times - but it’s got like a psychosis or other sort of mental illness for a few. There is no way out for them so they want covid to last forever. 

There's one guy I actually quite like, interesting fellow who definitely knows more about this stuff than me, and who was sort of willing to engage a bit. I was disappointed when he had enough of me tbh. It is possible, although very very unlikely, that I'm wrong, and I'm totally willing to hear why.

Some of the others though...

[Ramseyboi]

2 hours ago, Happier diner said:

Not necessarily. What if you were sleeping with someone infected or sharing a house will other infected persons? The load can vary enormously. That's why so many health workers were ill in the first wave.

Also the vaccine is not even a 'virus', whatever a 'virus' is. It's a harmless thing that looks like real actual virus to our immune systems. Not aware that it's an enormous dose, but because it can't to propagate like the real thing there needs to be just sufficient to trigger an immune response.

So many people have shared houses and beds with infected people without catching it.  Makes a mockery of the whole mask thing IMO.

Also agree that letting it rip through kids is good thing and not a negative.

[TheTeapot]

I'm getting a bit dispirited by it all really, despite all the good news.

[Happier diner]

1 hour ago, Ramseyboi said:

So many people have shared houses and beds with infected people without catching it.  Makes a mockery of the whole mask thing IMO.

Also agree that letting it rip through kids is good thing and not a negative.

I didn't say it was a bad thing. Just a thing!