Cambon Posted July 22 Share Posted July 22 (edited) 5 minutes ago, Two-lane said: How many people in England were jailed for the same offence? What happened at Abbotswood? If more people in uk were jailed, perhaps they would have had less lockdown and less deaths. As for Abbotswood, it was stupid to send people back there from hospital. Completely stupid and avoidable. Edited July 22 by Cambon 3 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cissolt Posted July 22 Share Posted July 22 We also have the double standards based on class when it came to prison sentences. The visiting welders were sent to prison, but the care home boses from jersey didn't even get a talking to. 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ringy Rose Posted July 22 Share Posted July 22 5 minutes ago, WTF said: yet the government did nothing about all the steam packet employees who it turned out had been breaking covid regulations en masse The government told the Steam Packet what the rules were and gave the Steam Packet a document including said rules. Somehow “as an oversight” the Steam Packet HR didn’t tell the crew and didn’t pass that document on to them. So it would have been unfair to do anything against the crew in that situation. Exactly why Steam Packet HR failed to pass on the information has never been adequately explained. Loganair, West Atlantic and Mezeron managed to pass the information on and their crews complied throughout. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ringy Rose Posted July 22 Share Posted July 22 (edited) 4 minutes ago, cissolt said: The visiting welders were sent to prison, but the care home boses from jersey didn't even get a talking to. The care home bosses had left before they could be spoken to. They got lucky. It was also early on with them. The early versions of the entry certificates were cobbled together in a hurry and weren’t exactly 100% watertight. By the time the welders came over the wording had been sorted and those welders knew exactly what the rules were. The welders thought they were in the UK and thought it’d be a fine. They were wrong. Again, FAFO as they say. Edited July 22 by Ringy Rose 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bosley Posted July 22 Share Posted July 22 1 hour ago, Ringy Rose said: Those 72 people thought they were special and the rules didn’t apply to them. FAFO, as they say. The only people who thought they were special were the government pond life giving all the orders to lock up and jail people. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
P.K. Posted July 22 Share Posted July 22 50 minutes ago, Bosley said: The only people who thought they were special were the government pond life giving all the orders to lock up and jail people. Already reduced to insulting folks. Didn't take long... 2 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cambon Posted July 22 Share Posted July 22 1 hour ago, Ringy Rose said: The government told the Steam Packet what the rules were and gave the Steam Packet a document including said rules. Somehow “as an oversight” the Steam Packet HR didn’t tell the crew and didn’t pass that document on to them. So it would have been unfair to do anything against the crew in that situation. Exactly why Steam Packet HR failed to pass on the information has never been adequately explained. Loganair, West Atlantic and Mezeron managed to pass the information on and their crews complied throughout. On top of which, it was ages before any steampacket transgression came to light. In general IOM did well until the New Year debacle in Ramsey which saw us ho back i to lockdown. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ringy Rose Posted July 22 Share Posted July 22 14 minutes ago, Cambon said: On top of which, it was ages before any steampacket transgression came to light. In fairness to the crew, they were generally being pretty sensible for the most part. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ringy Rose Posted July 22 Share Posted July 22 1 hour ago, Bosley said: The only people who thought they were special were the government pond life giving all the orders to lock up and jail people. Thanks for your input Courtenay xx Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Wright Posted July 22 Share Posted July 22 1 hour ago, Bosley said: The only people who thought they were special were the government pond life giving all the orders to lock up and jail people. Government may have drafted the regulations, and Tynwald approved them, but ministers and civil servants had no input or influence on actual sentencing. It’s not an isolated example. Today I was court duty advocate. Couple examples. England. Drunk & Incapable £40, IoM £275 England. Possess class B ( personal use ) £80. IoM £400. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Two-lane Posted July 22 Share Posted July 22 12 minutes ago, John Wright said: Government may have drafted the regulations, and Tynwald approved them, but ministers and civil servants had no input or influence on actual sentencing. Does that mean that there are sentencing guidelines, but that the IoM judiciary always go for the max.? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WTF Posted July 22 Share Posted July 22 36 minutes ago, John Wright said: Government may have drafted the regulations, and Tynwald approved them, but ministers and civil servants had no input or influence on actual sentencing. It’s not an isolated example. Today I was court duty advocate. Couple examples. England. Drunk & Incapable £40, IoM £275 England. Possess class B ( personal use ) £80. IoM £400. those government pensions and wages don't pay themselves Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bosley Posted July 22 Share Posted July 22 (edited) 50 minutes ago, John Wright said: Government may have drafted the regulations, and Tynwald approved them, but ministers and civil servants had no input or influence on actual sentencing. Yes they lazily enacted emergency legislation originally drafted in 1938 and somehow thought it was acceptable to treat us like it was 80 odd years ago. No initial thought of a fixed penalty system or anything else. Sorry the AGs Office, Cabinet Office and Tynwald were 100% responsible for that and the border control that followed. They created the framework which saw 94 people left with life long criminal convictions and 72 with prison records on their file. For being on the Comin that passed that alone Ashford should hang his head in eternal shame. Edited July 22 by Bosley Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gladys Posted July 22 Share Posted July 22 35 minutes ago, John Wright said: Government may have drafted the regulations, and Tynwald approved them, but ministers and civil servants had no input or influence on actual sentencing. It’s not an isolated example. Today I was court duty advocate. Couple examples. England. Drunk & Incapable £40, IoM £275 England. Possess class B ( personal use ) £80. IoM £400. I can find nothing on the prison sentences or creation of a criminal record for infringement in the Brunner report, apart from comments about how the penalties were considered as draconian. But, have to admit I didn't scour the 3,500 page report I suppose the actions of the courts would be outside of the scope of the report. The point remains though, that the regulations did provide for imprisonment as well as fines and that was approved by Tynwald. Did the UK regulations include imprisonment or just on the spot fines and did the imposition of a fine result in a criminal record in the UK? Perhaps over-zealous drafting by the AG's office or was there no mechanism to have on the spot fines so the only penalties in the regulations that could be imposed were criminal? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gladys Posted July 22 Share Posted July 22 8 minutes ago, Bosley said: Yes they lazily enacted emergency legislation originally drafted in 1938 and somehow thought it was acceptable to treat us like it was 80 odd years ago. No initial thought of a fixed penalty system or anything else. Sorry the AGs Office, Cabinet Office and Tynwald were 100% responsible for that and the border control that followed. They created the framework which saw 94 people left with life long criminal convictions and 72 with prison records on their file. For being on the Comin that passed that alone Ashford should hang his head in eternal shame. The 1938 Act was the only legislation under which the regulations could be made, as I understand it. How far that Act allowed regulations to include penalties without creating a criminal record, I don't know. They were extraordinary times, but removal of any criminal record should, for those who fell on the wrong side of them, be given urgent attention. If there were, say, people traffickers illegally moving people in the backs of lorries here during the restrictions, or continual flouting of the restrictions, then absolutely, prison and a criminal record. Were any of that severity? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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