IOM Covid removing restrictions

[thesultanofsheight]

2 minutes ago, tetchtyke said:

Point is it is mostly closed to most people.

It isn’t. If you want to still believe that as I said that’s fine. But that isn’t really the reality. 

[tetchtyke]

11 minutes ago, Neil Down said:

It’s nowhere near closed. This is where Government let themselves down with their half arsed action. The whole self isolate is a shambles but they’ll have you believe it’s working

 I think the balance is about right, it works *enough*. The other choice is shoving everyone in the Comis.

Edited September 23, 2020 by tetchtyke

[Neil Down]

25 minutes ago, tetchtyke said:

Point is it is mostly closed to most people.

Do you really believe that

[wrighty]

19 minutes ago, Gladys said:

I have read it.  I don't  believe CV is a hoax, I do believe that the way information is provided follows an agenda.  I also believe that the measures have the potential for great long  lasting harm.

To be honest, I think the agenda is as simple as goverments getting themselves on a hook that they cannot get themselves off without being accused of recklessness, or murder.  Even on MR, people were saying they would consider that our government would be guilty of murder if anyone else dies after relaxation of the CV measures. Not a great platform for your election chances. 

I’ve also read it. Largely ad hominem attacks on the naysayers because they’re right wing, or have contracts with Boris, or aren’t established epidemiologists. 
 

I’ve also read articles in the British Medical Journal. I’m concerned that agenda has been set. If you so much as claim that covid is not so bad, or the restrictions are damaging you’re immediately labeled a covid heretic, or compared with Trump, Bolsanaro, or some Swedish guy. 
 

There is a balance to be struck here. I’m not sure where it is, but it’s certainly not at either end of the debate. My son returned to uni at the weekend - I was more concerned about him driving along the M62 than for him catching covid. We need a better understanding of risk, and it needs to be more sophisticated than ‘1 death = murder by government’ vs ‘ government lockdowns kill the economy’

[Gladys]

Yes, it doesn't come across as a considered piece, may be well researched but it is definitely punting an agenda.  It does strike me as odd that this has become a party political debate - the lefties wanting complete government control, the capitalists wanting more self-determination and risk assessment while protecting the vulnerable.  Even odder that this division has put me on the side of the capitalists!

[wrighty]

1 minute ago, Gladys said:

Yes, it doesn't come across as a considered piece, may be well researched but it is definitely punting an agenda.  It does strike me as odd that this has become a party political debate - the lefties wanting complete government control, the capitalists wanting more self-detetmination and risk assessment while protecting the vulnerable.  Even odder that this division has put me on the side of the capitalists!

Even odder that the Tory party are siding with the lefties!

[Rhumsaa]

4 minutes ago, Gladys said:

Yes, it doesn't come across as a considered piece, may be well researched but it is definitely punting an agenda.  It does strike me as odd that this has become a party political debate - the lefties wanting complete government control, the capitalists wanting more self-determination and risk assessment while protecting the vulnerable.  Even odder that this division has put me on the side of the capitalists!

isn't that the way of the world these days, every big issues eventually boils down left vs right in an extremely adversarial and polarising stand off?

I mean the one thing that could have brought everyone together is a worldwide pandemic and yet its actually just furthered the divide

[Gladys]

It is an odd old world!

[TheTeapot]

There are loads of weird things like that going on. Loads of people you'd consider to be on the right keep going on about Sweden, completely disregarding its more socialist approach to things like public health. Conspiracy folk go  on about the new world order, but all we're seeing in the disjointed response is no world order. Be no surprise to see much more civil unrest coming soon across the world.

Edit - It's all the moderates fault.

Edited September 23, 2020 by TheTeapot

[Roger Mexico]

6 minutes ago, thesultanofsheight said:

10 minutes ago, tetchtyke said:

Point is it is mostly closed to most people.

It isn’t. If you want to still believe that as I said that’s fine. But that isn’t really the reality. 

Don't be silly, it's obvious the reality that it is closed to most people.  Hordes aren't pouring off the ferry; the skies over Ronaldsway aren't dark with planes. 

It's true there almost certainly have been abuses and the systems for checking up on people are inadequate at best - and only reaching that stage recently.  It's true the rules have often been badly thought through and badly implemented.  It's true this is all unfair on the vast majority that stick by the rules.

But that really doesn't matter.  Epidemiology is about probabilities and if the vast majority do follow the rules then we will (probably) get away with it.  The number that break the rules will be small and they will probably not do so blatantly.  The daft woman who wants to pop in M&S from the boat won't do it every day; the idiot bloke who decides to have a pint won't be out every night..

There's one thing that makes a difference though, which is the level of prevalence in the area that people are travelling from.  The high that is the more likely the person breaking the rules will be infected with the virus and so pass it on.  That's why there needs to be stricter controls and better enforcement if the level goes up in the UK.  

[Rhumsaa]

9 minutes ago, Roger Mexico said:

There's one thing that makes a difference though, which is the level of prevalence in the area that people are travelling from.  The high that is the more likely the person breaking the rules will be infected with the virus and so pass it on.  That's why there needs to be stricter controls and better enforcement if the level goes up in the UK.  

That's the point that I think is being borne out the most.

I was popping my tinfoil hat on a few weeks ago and eyeing with great suspicion our covid free streak as the number of people travelling to and from the UK started to increase but it actually makes sense now we've seen the spike in cases in the UK and the appearance of isolated cases from people returning to the Island compared to the numbers in July etc

[P.K.]

3 hours ago, Gladys said:

I have already said what I think - it is a worrying statistic when viewed against the measures.

Mind you, the lock down was imposed when the experts said that cases would be a million and Prof John Newton advised that lock down was the only option, hence track and trace was abandoned. 

Track, Trace and Isolate were supposed to REPLACE the lockdown.

That's the bit that, luckily for Dido Bozo and Doormatt, has been largely forgotten.

Clever move to call it the "NHS" Track Trace and Isolate system because Bozo can then accuse that nice Keir Starmer of bashing the much-loved NHS when he points out what a complete and utter shambles it is. Yes it's shit but it's enough to fool the mis-informed hard of thinking....

It's mostly Serco whose chairman is a well known tory donor.

Well fancy that....

[Gladys]

2 minutes ago, P.K. said:

Track, Trace and Isolate were supposed to REPLACE the lockdown.

That's the bit that, luckily for Dido Bozo and Doormatt, has been largely forgotten.

Clever move to call it the "NHS" Track Trace and Isolate system because Bozo can then accuse that nice Keir Starmer of bashing the much-loved NHS when he points out what a complete and utter shambles it is. Yes it's shit but it's enough to fool the mis-informed hard of thinking....

It's mostly Serco whose chairman is a well known tory donor.

Well fancy that....

No, track and trace was ABANDONED in March when Prof Newton said the only option was lock down. The 'transformed' test system was to replace lock down. 

[P.K.]

4 minutes ago, Gladys said:

No, track and trace was ABANDONED in March when Prof Newton said the only option was lock down. The 'transformed' test system was to replace lock down. 

I know.

The point I'm making is that the UK came out of lockdown WITHOUT a viable Track Trace and Isolate system to replace it with. And we still haven't got one. And cases are rising.

Starmer took Bozo to task over this at PMQ's and Bozo's answers were, at best, incoherent.

Making it obvious that Bozo knows it's a pile of poo....

[Gladys]

1 minute ago, P.K. said:

I know.

The point I'm making is that the UK came out of lockdown WITHOUT a viable Track Trace and Isolate system to replace it with. And we still haven't got one. And cases are rising.

Starmer took Bozo to task over this at PMQ's and Bozo's answers were, at best, incoherent.

Making it obvious that Bozo knows it's a pile of poo....

And the point I am making is that the experts (Imperial College IIRC) were predicting a million cases in March and, in view of the enormity, lock down was advised.  Resources were focused on fighting the disease, hence the Nightingale Hospitals and the largest reportedly had no more than 34 cases at any one time. 

So, when you are faced with the huge economic impact of lock down, even if you have an imperfect track and trace system it would seem to be Hobson's choice. That, in my view, is the stark reality.  The mixed messages have not helped, but you know really, there are some intractable issues all of which have implications.  The only real pathway is to find, not choose because we are not dealing with a thing of logic, the least egregious option, and that will change as matters develop. 

Without wanting to put matters in a personal footing, but going back to my vested interest comment, I am assuming you are now retired and receiving a pension or pensions.  Most likely, an occupational pension, possibly a private pension and the state pension.  If the economy really tanks, what do you think will happen to them?  So, like all of us,  you have very much a vested interest on a number of levels including health, directly and indirectly connected to CV, and economically.   It is not a matter of left or right, or Bozo and the Grauniad, but what will have the most benefit for the least cost.