Gladys Posted June 25, 2020 Share Posted June 25, 2020 That is fine, it is your opinion. On the transgender issue, it is very sad that science cannot deliver a full biological gender reassignment to someone who genuinely feels trapped in the wrong body. But you can't deny the basic biological truth and perhaps it would be better, psychologically, to work on acceptance of what is achievable rather than feeling you have been denied something that is not deliverable. 1 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HeliX Posted June 25, 2020 Share Posted June 25, 2020 Just now, Gladys said: That is fine, it is your opinion. On the transgender issue, it is very sad that science cannot deliver a full biological gender reassignment to someone who genuinely feels trapped in the wrong body. But you can't deny the basic biological truth and perhaps it would be better, psychologically, to work on acceptance of what is achievable rather than feeling you have been denied something that is not deliverable. It's difficult to know what the best approach is for transgender people. Our understanding is still severely lacking. At the moment I would suggest all we can really go off is the viewpoints and experiences of people who are transgender. And it seems to be at the moment that the gender reassignment we can achieve is a significant boost to their mental wellbeing in the majority of cases. Given the absolutely horrific suicide rate for transgender teens, I think it's quite important that we do our level best to do what appears to be beneficial. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gladys Posted June 25, 2020 Share Posted June 25, 2020 Just now, HeliX said: It's difficult to know what the best approach is for transgender people. Our understanding is still severely lacking. At the moment I would suggest all we can really go off is the viewpoints and experiences of people who are transgender. And it seems to be at the moment that the gender reassignment we can achieve is a significant boost to their mental wellbeing in the majority of cases. Given the absolutely horrific suicide rate for transgender teens, I think it's quite important that we do our level best to do what appears to be beneficial. All good words, and I agree. However, medical science cannot deliver a complete biological reassignment and it is surely more helpful to help the person come to terms with that fact, rather than let them feel that they are being denied something that isn't achievable. Also, wasn't there a recent report that a reluctance to challenge and test young people's wish for a gender reassigment may actually result in too many going through the process when it wasnt really appropriate causing horrendous mental health issues? 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HeliX Posted June 25, 2020 Share Posted June 25, 2020 (edited) 6 minutes ago, Gladys said: All good words, and I agree. However, medical science cannot deliver a complete biological reassignment and it is surely more helpful to help the person come to terms with that fact, rather than let them feel that they are being denied something that isn't achievable. Also, wasn't there a recent report that a reluctance to challenge and test young people's wish for a gender reassigment may actually result in too many going through the process when it wasnt really appropriate causing horrendous mental health issues? I can only speak of the process in the UK, because I only personally know trans individuals in the UK, but counselling is a big part of gender dysphoria treatment under the NHS whether people choose to undergo hormone treatment, surgery, or neither. There probably are instances of that, but the process in the UK at least is extremely thorough. The criteria for even hormone blockers are very strict. It's then after 12 months of hormone blockers that they may be referred for the use of cross-sex hormones. I believe for surgery you require a diagnosis of transsexualism, which requires you to have lived a transsexual identity persistently for a minimum of 2 years. A lot of newspapers (looking at you, The Times) make it sound like any bloke off the street can walk into an NHS clinic and come out a lady and start harassing people in bathrooms, but in reality it's a long, arduous struggle for a person with gender dysphoria to transition. Edited June 25, 2020 by HeliX Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
quilp Posted June 25, 2020 Share Posted June 25, 2020 38 minutes ago, HeliX said: I put up with a fair amount of ribbing on here, but please don't imply I'm intellectually dishonest when I'm putting quite measured effort into understanding your viewpoints and rationales, including spending my entire lunch watching a video you linked rather than enjoying myself. Well, I can't prove that you didn't watch or listen, and you can't prove that you did. "intellectually dishonest" lol... 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
quilp Posted June 25, 2020 Share Posted June 25, 2020 17 minutes ago, HeliX said: It's difficult to know what the best approach is for transgender people. Our understanding is still severely lacking... Is it? Your understanding may be "severely lacking" but lots of people understand it plain as day and an undeniable biological truth that a man cannot be a woman, or t'other way around. The hysteria from supposedly enlightened people shows a great deal of entitlement that is undeserved. The same sort of righteous entitlement displayed around BLM. That their's is the only acceptable view, you know, "you're either with us or you're a racist" or transphobic, in this case... 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gladys Posted June 25, 2020 Share Posted June 25, 2020 4 minutes ago, quilp said: Is it? Your understanding may be "severely lacking" but lots of people understand it plain as day and an undeniable biological truth that a man cannot be a woman, or t'other way around. The hysteria from supposedly enlightened people shows a great deal of entitlement that is undeserved. The same sort of righteous entitlement displayed around BLM. That their's is the only acceptable view, you know, "you're either with us or you're a racist" or transphobic, in this case... Do you want to post a link to The Life of Brian clip, or shall I? 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HeliX Posted June 25, 2020 Share Posted June 25, 2020 20 minutes ago, quilp said: Well, I can't prove that you didn't watch or listen, and you can't prove that you did. "intellectually dishonest" lol... You could take my word for it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HeliX Posted June 25, 2020 Share Posted June 25, 2020 10 minutes ago, quilp said: Is it? Your understanding may be "severely lacking" but lots of people understand it plain as day and an undeniable biological truth that a man cannot be a woman, or t'other way around. The hysteria from supposedly enlightened people shows a great deal of entitlement that is undeserved. The same sort of righteous entitlement displayed around BLM. That their's is the only acceptable view, you know, "you're either with us or you're a racist" or transphobic, in this case... The evidence doesn't suggest that what you're saying is the truth though. The evidence suggests that gender dysphoria is real. That someone born biologically male can be wired to feel like they're not biologically male. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Dog's Dangly Bits Posted June 25, 2020 Share Posted June 25, 2020 6 minutes ago, HeliX said: The evidence doesn't suggest that what you're saying is the truth though. The evidence suggests that gender dysphoria is real. That someone born biologically male can be wired to feel like they're not biologically male. Yes but they ARE biologically Male. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HeliX Posted June 25, 2020 Share Posted June 25, 2020 (edited) 5 minutes ago, The Dog's Dangly Bits said: Yes but they ARE biologically Male. I don't see anywhere I've disagreed with that? EDIT: Although of course it does depend what you mean by "biological sex"... https://blogs.scientificamerican.com/voices/stop-using-phony-science-to-justify-transphobia/ Edited June 25, 2020 by HeliX Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Max Power Posted June 25, 2020 Share Posted June 25, 2020 11 minutes ago, The Dog's Dangly Bits said: Yes but they ARE biologically Male. I don't pretend to know much about transgender issues but I do know people who have done the transition. They have generally been quite gentle souls who, in my opinion, couldn't handle their life as a man for physical and reasons of expectation rather than any sexual motives I am aware of. That would indicate to me that it is more of a mental health issue in a lot of cases? I'm not saying that there are no genuine cases where people are physically in both sexes but I find it alarming how quickly young people are assigned for transition at an early age and when they are not fully developed mentally. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Max Power Posted June 25, 2020 Share Posted June 25, 2020 1 hour ago, HeliX said: Wasn't trying to complain about you posting it, just thought it was amusing that people keep implying that there's huge numbers of black people who are anti-BLM, and then it's only ever the same names coming up... That's probably because they tend get posted together, there are a lot more popping up, mainly on Twitter, on a daily basis. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HeliX Posted June 25, 2020 Share Posted June 25, 2020 4 minutes ago, Max Power said: I don't pretend to know much about transgender issues but I do know people who have done the transition. They have generally been quite gentle souls who, in my opinion, couldn't handle their life as a man for physical and reasons of expectation rather than any sexual motives I am aware of. That would indicate to me that it is more of a mental health issue in a lot of cases? I'm not saying that there are no genuine cases where people are physically in both sexes but I find it alarming how quickly young people are assigned for transition at an early age and when they are not fully developed mentally. In the UK or other countries? It's certainly not quick in the UK https://www.nhs.uk/conditions/gender-dysphoria/treatment/ https://www.nhs.uk/Livewell/Transhealth/Documents/gender-dysphoria-guide-for-gps-and-other-health-care-staff.pdf Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Max Power Posted June 25, 2020 Share Posted June 25, 2020 14 minutes ago, HeliX said: In the UK or other countries? It's certainly not quick in the UK https://www.nhs.uk/conditions/gender-dysphoria/treatment/ https://www.nhs.uk/Livewell/Transhealth/Documents/gender-dysphoria-guide-for-gps-and-other-health-care-staff.pdf As I say, I don't know much about it but like many things, it depends on which consultant you see I imagine? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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