Black Lives Matter

[manxman1980]

1 hour ago, quilp said:

Edited to add: A petition raised on change.org, signed up to by 20,000+ people to have her sacked, has been removed by the website. In comparison, take the furore over the "White Lives Matter Burnley" banner, the 'perpetrators' get sacked from their jobs and publicly vilified with great fanfare yet this hateful racist Doctor gets promoted by the university...

I refer you to the discussion I had with Woolley in reference to the dismissal of the guy in Burnley.

Basically, two organisations can come to entirely different decisions and both be acceptable. 

And yes there is a fine line when it comes to positive action and positive discrimination.

[Manximus Aururaneus]

Can't wait to hear the intentions of the WOKE brigade when they realise that they stones for Stonehenge were dragged there by slaves.

[TheTeapot]

12 minutes ago, Manximus Aururaneus said:

Can't wait to hear the intentions of the WOKE brigade when they realise that they stones for Stonehenge were dragged there by slaves.

Hmmm

[quilp]

37 minutes ago, Kopek said:

"White lives don't matter" . '' As white lives ''.

Can you explain the second sentence? Perhaps the two sentences together?

Maybe she means that we are all human beings and that colour doesn't matter? ( or shouldn't ).

Don't ask me to explain stuff to you Kopek. If you're so interested do a search of your own for context and meaning in what she spouted and draw your own conclusion. If MF is your only form of enlightenment you'll end up in the doghouse. 

[Manximus Aururaneus]

26 minutes ago, TheTeapot said:

Hmmm

Harrumph.

[HeliX]

3 hours ago, Neil Down said:

No need to add anything further to your apologist posting. You're the type that makes an excuse on somebody else's behalf. You get offended on behalf of others. Quite pitiful really

Who am I apologising for? Who am I making excuses for? Who am I offended for?

[Gladys]

26 minutes ago, quilp said:

Don't ask me to explain stuff to you Kopek. If you're so interested do a search of your own for context and meaning in what she spouted and draw your own conclusion. If MF is your only form of enlightenment you'll end up in the doghouse. 

You asking someone to go educate themselves?  Now, where have I heard that before?

[HeliX]

2 hours ago, quilp said:

https://unherd.com/2020/06/cambridge-universitys-very-modern-bigotry/

A 5-minute read by Douglas Murray. I posted earlier about this woman, and the selective stance taken by Cambridge University regarding its policies on no-platforming academics who don't or won't toe the line. The MSM has been very quiet on this Doctor's divisive and racist statement, "White lives don't matter" and has given little coverage to the university's reaction and defence of this employee. A white person would be hung, drawn and quartered had the roles been reversed.

Edited to add: A petition raised on change.org, signed up to by 20,000+ people to have her sacked, has been removed by the website. In comparison, take the furore over the "White Lives Matter Burnley" banner, the 'perpetrators' get sacked from their jobs and publicly vilified with great fanfare yet this hateful racist Doctor gets promoted by the university...

"The MSM has been very quiet on this Doctor's divisive and racist statement"

https://www.theguardian.com/education/2020/jun/25/abolish-whiteness-academic-calls-for-cambridge-support

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8460059/Cambridge-University-backs-academic-tweeted-White-Lives-Dont-Matter.html

https://uk.finance.yahoo.com/news/cambridge-university-professor-abolish-whiteness-120820583.html

https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/11957331/cambridge-uni-backs-academic-tweeted-white-lives-dont-matter/

https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/death-threats-sent-cambridge-university-22257382

https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/will-cambridge-university-finally-stand-up-for-free-speech-

How much more coverage should the opinions of one whopper get?

[Max Power]

4 hours ago, wrighty said:

By ‘they’ do you mean black? So are you saying ‘they’ can’t drive or swim particularly well?

I’m being deliberately provocative here, exactly in the way Stu’s callers were, but you are stereotyping. The swimming argument has been debunked. It is all about privilege - access to a pool, parents that get up with you at 5am to go training before school every day (why do they do that?) - rather than genetics, or heavy bones etc. And as for motorsport - it’s all expensive. I’m from a working class background. There’s no way I could have had my own go-cart and raced at weekends as a kid - we couldn’t have afforded it, let alone not having a garage in which to store it or a van/trailer to transport it between circuits. I’m aware there are some DIYers with sidecar outfits and the like over here who perhaps manage to race on a shoestring budget, but that is certainly not the norm in motorsport generally which is for white privileged folk in the main. 

I'm not stereotyping wrighty, you are! There are plenty of wealthy black people and plenty who have a strong family base. Just being black doesn't mean a poor single parent upbringing. 

Are black people excluded from swimming pools in the UK, Europe, the US? I am not aware of a black swimming champion? Likewise, they are not excluded from motorsport. Family support is important as is enough money to be competitive and the will to make it happen. Lots of white people face exactly the same barriers.  The TT as an example, locals Dan Kneen and Conor Cummins were not from wealthy families. They just went out, with family support, and took their chances. It takes hard work and dedication. I went racing with very little money and no family support, I was only moderately successful because I couldn't raise the cash to get good enough. I can imagine that black people may feel the door is closed, but it's not. So is the problem more a 'feeling' than a fact? Is white privilege more a feeling than a fact?

[HeliX]

3 minutes ago, Max Power said:

Is white privilege more a feeling than a fact?

I think that's a bit of a leap from motorsport

Every non-white person I know has suffered racial abuse. Almost none of the white people I know have. I don't think that's a particularly controversial statement, and nor would I claim that that's the "sum" of white privilege, but it's certainly an easily digestible example of it.

 

As for motorsport (other than the TT) as well as money and dedication you also need a lot of time. Taking the kids to events, training, etc. Losing whole weekends to it. You have to be fairly well off (and only working one job ideally!) to be able to do that. I would agree with the assertion that it's mostly a class-based distinction, but in the UK at least class is pretty strongly linked to ethnicity. https://www.ethnicity-facts-figures.service.gov.uk/work-pay-and-benefits/pay-and-income/income-distribution/latest#:~:text=White British households had the,lowest income quintile (17%)&text=the ethnic groups with the,%) and Black (62%)

The TT & road racing is a bit different as the startup costs (of both time and money) can potentially be lower, but there's no denying that someone who's family could afford to get them onto motorbikes in the single-digit ages will have a distinct advantage.

[quilp]

2 hours ago, HeliX said:

"The MSM has been very quiet on this Doctor's divisive and racist statement"

https://www.theguardian.com/education/2020/jun/25/abolish-whiteness-academic-calls-for-cambridge-support

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8460059/Cambridge-University-backs-academic-tweeted-White-Lives-Dont-Matter.html

https://uk.finance.yahoo.com/news/cambridge-university-professor-abolish-whiteness-120820583.html

https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/11957331/cambridge-uni-backs-academic-tweeted-white-lives-dont-matter/

https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/death-threats-sent-cambridge-university-22257382

https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/will-cambridge-university-finally-stand-up-for-free-speech-

How much more coverage should the opinions of one whopper get?

Ah, thanks for that. But after reading those links they only serve to compound the problem of biased and politically motivated reportage, from all sides. And now it appears that the shock and outrage, or support and excuse-making for what she published has diminished to nothing. So nothing to see here (except for her other historical statements in the twittersphere). Just "abolish whiteness" whether that be socially or figuratively and we'll all get along just fine. 

Edited June 28, 2020 by quilp

[wrighty]

20 minutes ago, Max Power said:

I'm not stereotyping wrighty, you are! There are plenty of wealthy black people and plenty who have a strong family base. Just being black doesn't mean a poor single parent upbringing. 

Are black people excluded from swimming pools in the UK, Europe, the US? I am not aware of a black swimming champion? Likewise, they are not excluded from motorsport. Family support is important as is enough money to be competitive and the will to make it happen. Lots of white people face exactly the same barriers.  The TT as an example, locals Dan Kneen and Conor Cummins were not from wealthy families. They just went out, with family support, and took their chances. It takes hard work and dedication. I went racing with very little money and no family support, I was only moderately successful because I couldn't raise the cash to get good enough. I can imagine that black people may feel the door is closed, but it's not. So is the problem more a 'feeling' than a fact? Is white privilege more a feeling than a fact?

I'm not stereotyping Max, I'm 'averaging'.  From the site Helix links to we can see that 24.3% of black households are lone parent, compared with 10.2% of white households.  You will probably find similar stats in terms of income levels, educational attainment, employment status etc. such that in the UK at least, 'whites' are doing better than 'blacks'.

I agree with what others have said that part of the reason for the lack of black snooker champions for example is cultural, just like the lack of white rappers is cultural rather than down to being barred from trying.  I also agree that there are certain genetic influences (more geographical origin than down to skin colour per se at least with sprinters and distance runners) that come into play.  But wealth, social class and family circumstances are big influences in the success or otherwise in certain spheres.

White privilege is definitely a thing - not for all individuals as just like Stu was trying to point out there are some black people who have a far more privileged life than some white people - at least in UK/US/EU society.  Perhaps it should be referred to as majority privilege, as I think it stems from whatever is the dominant culture rather than skin colour itself.

It's certainly a useful conversation to be had.  I'm learning.  The conversation only becomes a problem when people look to take offence, either themselves or by proxy, or when naysayers are shouted down as idiots or racists.  There's a little bit of that on here but on the whole the thread is pretty good.  Education regarding racial attitudes is a good thing.  As I think I've said before, it's probably not possible to change how people feel about other races - I think it's probably hard-wired or at least ingrained to be wary at least of those who are different from us - but by education it is possible to change how people think and act, such that future generations may not have such ingrained attitudes.

[woolley]

14 hours ago, wrighty said:

No barriers based on colour, but F1, Polar Explorers, Equestrian Sports, Sailing, Rowing... Very few black competitors, let alone champions. And this is all about privilege and opportunity. Black competitors do well where you don’t need a load of expensive gear to take part - Boxing (always bet on the black guy - a quote from the Naked Gun film, but pretty fair), running, football, cricket... And this is all about social class, privilege and opportunity rather than colour or race.

 

Not convinced. Why are all of the best short distance runners black? This must be to do with innate physical attributes at least to some extent. Are you saying that with the same training and dedication, other races would do as well?

[woolley]

11 hours ago, Roger Mexico said:

But wrighty is basically correct.  A lot of it is because, for a lot of sports and occupations you have to be well-off and/or well-connected to get into the field.  So those will exclude all but a small minority of black people and even those may not feel welcome.  Of course a lot of white people will be similarly excluded, but not to the same extent.

Why not to the same extent? If you are flat broke skint, it matters not what colour you are. You can't rock up to a sports club and tell them you want to exercise your white privilege for some free equipment. There's a lot of BLM propaganda being thrown around without any scrutiny.

[wrighty]

1 minute ago, woolley said:

Not convinced. Why are all of the best short distance runners black? This must be to do with innate physical attributes at least to some extent. Are you saying that with the same training and dedication, other races would do as well?

No, I refer to this in my later contribution, but just because most top sprinters are black, does not imply blacks in general can run better than whites.  I understand that most top sprinters originate from a similar region of Africa.  But the other point I made is that it is in sports that are minimally technical and need the least gear and organisation that black athletes do well, because those events don't rely so much on money/class/family to become good.