Black Lives Matter

[Gladys]

2 minutes ago, Lagman said:

That one would be a bit stupid though, as far as I can remember the connection with that guy and the island was that the guy from here who was Napoleons jailer freed him from slavery and brought him back here and employed him. He basically did better than a lot of people here at the time would have, I think he would have lived in what would then have be considered a mansion.

He died at 18. 

[manxman1980]

1 minute ago, Gladys said:

Sorry, having a thick moment, I don't understand.  Why would a monument to a slave be problematic. 

No, you are not being thick.  I missed the word "trader" out of the sentence.

[Lagman]

15 minutes ago, Gladys said:

He died at 18. 

Is it the same person then?

I was pretty sure it was this guy that freed him -

http://www.isle-of-man.com/manxnotebook/fulltext/worthies/p155.htm

http://www.isle-of-man.com/manxnotebook/gazateer/houses/kirby.htm

 

[Gladys]

3 minutes ago, Lagman said:

Is it the same person then?

I was pretty sure it was this guy that freed him -

http://www.isle-of-man.com/manxnotebook/fulltext/worthies/p155.htm

http://www.isle-of-man.com/manxnotebook/gazateer/houses/kirby.htm

 

I was talking about Samuel Ally, the slave, who died at 18, despite being "adopted" by Wilks and living the good life. 

[Lagman]

1 minute ago, Gladys said:

I was talking about Samuel Ally, the slave, who died at 18, despite being "adopted" by Wilks and living the good life. 

Yep, that's him, I remember the Samuel part of the name. I've seen candles etc. put around the grave, thought it was a bit strange considering.

[Gladys]

Yes, I always found that grave very poignant, not least because he died so young despite being held in such high regard and, therefore presumably, well looked after. 

In a previous job, I used to have quite a bit to do with St Helena.  I never got there, but was fascinated by it and the connection to the Isle of Man. 

Edit ti add - Jonathan the giant tortoise  has just celebrated his 188th birthday

[Max Power]

Slavery in the British Isles was abolished long before Britain abolished it in the colonies.

[Lagman]

1 hour ago, Max Power said:

Slavery in the British Isles was abolished long before Britain abolished it in the colonies.

Britain abolished it before most other places, its still going on in Africa, the Middle East etc. -

https://qz.com/africa/1333946/global-slavery-index-africa-has-the-highest-rate-of-modern-day-slavery-in-the-world/

https://www.globalslaveryindex.org/2018/findings/global-findings/

 

[Lagman]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-53237824

"Fauci warns of 100,000 US cases per day"

"Top disease researcher Dr Anthony Fauci has told the US Senate that he "would not be surprised" if new virus cases in the country reach 100,000 per day.

"Clearly we are not in control right now," he testified, warning that not enough Americans are wearing masks or social distancing.

During the hearing, he said about half of all new cases come from four states.

Earlier, the New York governor said nearly half of all Americans must self-quarantine if they visit the state.

On Tuesday, cases rose by more than 40,000 in one day for the fourth time in the past five days.

The surge - which is occurring particularly strongly in southern and western states - has forced at least 16 states to pause or reverse their reopening plans, according to CNN. Florida, Arizona, Texas and California are the four states referenced by Dr Fauci as being most heavily hit currently.

For some the new measures come over a month after they first began to reopen their economies."

I wonder how much this has to do with the protests.

[manxman1980]

6 hours ago, Lagman said:

I wonder how much this has to do with the protests.

It will be a factor but probably has a lot more to do with;

1.  Trump initially saying that it was a hoax and/ or no worse than the flu;

2.. A lack of a coordinated response as each state responded independently;

3. A lack of affordable healthcare;

4. Anti lockdown protests with people objecting to social distancing  the closure of bars, restaurants, shops etc and wearing a face covering.  This being caused by point 1 and;

5. A lack of support for people unable to work.  There was no furlough scheme just a $1,500 hardship cheque (it could be $2000 but certainly no more;

[Declan]

11 hours ago, Gladys said:

Well, there is at least one in Old Braddan churchyard. 

Sir William Hillary's in the one opposite Bar George.

[FDR]

4 hours ago, manxman1980 said:

It will be a factor but probably has a lot more to do with;

1.  Trump initially saying that it was a hoax and/ or no worse than the flu;

2.. A lack of a coordinated response as each state responded independently;

3. A lack of affordable healthcare;

4. Anti lockdown protests with people objecting to social distancing  the closure of bars, restaurants, shops etc and wearing a face covering.  This being caused by point 1 and;

5. A lack of support for people unable to work.  There was no furlough scheme just a $1,500 hardship cheque (it could be $2000 but certainly no more;

It was the Democrats who were saying it was no worse than the flu and they even called Trump a racist for locking down travel with China and then Europe. Democrats were telling people to go out into the Chinese districts of their cities well into the month of March, saying it was all an anti-Chinese racist hoax made up by Trump. They were also still pushing the Russian collusion hoax and impeachment while this was going on, wasting valuable time and resources. 

There was a very successful coordinated response by the federal government, for which Trump is responsible. Due to the system in the US, responsibility is of each state for things like this. All the worst hit states and cities are run by Democrats. They failed at the state level. You can't criticise Trump for other people not doing their job properly. Contrary to widespread myth, the presidency is not an elected dictatorship. He has to follow the constitution. The feds can't override the states as a default position until an emergency is declared at the state level. The Democrats only have themselves to blame for failing to act sooner and make necessary preparations in their states. The Republican states all seem to have done a pretty good job of handling it. 

Affordable healthcare has nothing to do with it. The coronavirus estimates were overblown and all necessary resources were put in place and then not required. They've had ventelators and the US military go to these places with hospital ships and to set-up brand new field hospitals to prepare, which ended up not being needed. So what exactly is the "affordable healthcare" aspect to this? If there's a second wave of coronavirus, it's got nothing to do with affordable healthcare. It's due to people breaking quarantine guidelines in densely populated areas. If you look at where increases are expected and compare with a map of where riots have broken out, you'll see a 100% match.

Anti-lockdown protests were limited in number and mostly in areas that not particularly hit by the coronavirus, now or before. Lockdowns were being abused in many cases by politicians to sneak in laws and regulations which had nothing to do with coronavirus but were doing it under emergency powers and a number of these anti-lockdown protests were really about that and not the principle of a lockdown in and of itself. They were protesting abuse of power. The scale of those protests was limited and not in densely populated areas. If there is going to be a massive second wave, it'll be in the major densely populated cities run by Democrats where riots were taking place. 

Existing unemployment benefits exist. The furlough scheme was merely to support businesses to maintain staff during lockdown. 

[Gladys]

2 hours ago, Declan said:

Sir William Hillary's in the one opposite Bar George.

He was a bit of a puzzle.  He inherited a West Indian estate from his uncle, presumably that was some kind of plantation worked by slaves and his father was a merchant, a term often encompassing slavery as outgoing ships carried slaves and returns with goods from the new world. He was also not great with money, his second (Manx family Tobin)  wife bought the Fort Anne, but they had to leave as they could not keep up the mortgage.  The circumstances surrounding his second marriage were a "little unclear" too. 

Was he a "good man"?  History has painted him that way and there are arguments for and against, but his lasting legacy is the RNLI which by any measure, has to be not a bad thing to be remembered for.  And again, it is easy to judge actions a couple of hundred  years ago against our morals today and find them lacking.  Rather than erase or discredit historical figures  wouldn't it be better to also recount their involvement or wealth gained from slavery?  Something like " the monument is erected to the memory of X who did all these good things, but made much of his wealth by the shipment/exploitation of an estimated X number of slaves".

It would be interesting to learn how many people profiting from modern slavery are also great philanthropists or social innovators.  

[TheTeapot]

19 minutes ago, FDR said:

Total bollocks

Are you Kayleigh McEnema?

That whole pile of text you've just posted is straight out Trumps bum.

[Declan]

My understanding is he inherited plantations, but these were quickly sold to cover his debts. The sale was to a very pro-slavery MP. I suppose an abolitionist would have found a way to exit that situation in a way that freed the slaves. But if you're selling to cover a debt - it's probably out of your hands who buys it.

He was a bit of a character. He probably wouldn't have been in a position of influence to bring about the founding of the RNLI without his family's wealth (which seems tainted). But I don't think he's a Colson figure at all. There doesn't seem to be evidence of him investing in slavery or seeking to profit from it, you probably wouldn't lend him money but the founding of the greatly outweighs the other.

22 minutes ago, Gladys said:

It would be interesting to learn how many people profiting from modern slavery are also great philanthropists or social innovators.  

This from the RNLI website is interesting ...

Quote

RNLI and the slave trade

Some individuals linked to the slave trade, as well as abolitionists, helped to create the early RNLI.

Founder Sir William Hillary had friends on both sides, including anti-slave trade campaigners William Wilberforce and Samuel Hoare who were both instrumental in establishing our institution. Hillary’s views on the matter were not documented. We found no evidence to suggest he sought to be involved with slavery, but he did inherit a share of a plantation with slaves in the early 1800s. Hillary was in debt at the time and we understand his holdings were passed to George Hibbert.

Hibbert was a prominent MP, merchant and slave owner. He was also influential in the RNLI's formation and became one of its many Vice Presidents. Other Vice Presidents we know owned slaves included William Manning MP and Nathan Rothschild. The Chairman of the East India Company was also a Vice President, and the RNLI’s first President, Robert Jenkinson (the then Prime Minister), was against abolition. Some early RNLI donors were linked to the slave trade too. Therefore, we think it’s likely that some of the first lifeboats were partly funded by those profiting from slavery. 

That was their watch – but it’s Our Watch now. The RNLI today does not support or tolerate slavery in any way. We are committed to ensuring that modern slavery and human trafficking are not present in any RNLI supply chains. Find out what we’re doing today to make a difference. 

You have to wonder about that mental gymnastics that enabled people to see the humanitarian need for RNLI but not the abolition of slavery.

https://rnli.org/about-us/our-history/timeline/1824-our-foundation

Edited July 1, 2020 by Declan
adding link