HeliX Posted December 30, 2020 Share Posted December 30, 2020 Just now, John Wright said: Investor confidence = greed and gullibility. They have no value. They're what impacts the price of all currencies though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HeliX Posted December 30, 2020 Share Posted December 30, 2020 4 minutes ago, John Wright said: But it’s still either a ponzi, a scam or a fraud, at worst or a hysteria at best. It isn't though. It's a currency. Just not a particularly stable or usable one at the moment. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HeliX Posted December 30, 2020 Share Posted December 30, 2020 (edited) Doublepost Edited December 30, 2020 by HeliX Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Wright Posted December 30, 2020 Share Posted December 30, 2020 Just now, HeliX said: It isn't though. It's a currency. Just not a particularly stable or usable one at the moment. You and @Amadeus keep on kidding yourself 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HeliX Posted December 30, 2020 Share Posted December 30, 2020 2 minutes ago, John Wright said: You and @Amadeus keep on kidding yourself I'm not kidding anyone. I've bought plenty of stuff with Bitcoin. None of it illegal either. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaymann Posted December 30, 2020 Share Posted December 30, 2020 (edited) Bitcoin is nothing more than an asset class now, a currency by name sure. Its value is created by the market alone, it has no underwriting asset or monetary equivalent. Anyone who views BTC as a monetary value doesn't really understand it (sorry). The arse could literally fall out of it tomorrow and people will cry foul at their investment going sour. I don't think it will, but it could because the only thing which supports its value is a market of supply and demand. Edited December 30, 2020 by jaymann Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amadeus Posted December 30, 2020 Share Posted December 30, 2020 1 hour ago, John Wright said: But it’s still either a ponzi, a scam or a fraud, at worst or a hysteria at best. Why? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Wright Posted December 30, 2020 Share Posted December 30, 2020 1 minute ago, Amadeus said: Why? Because that’s what it is and how it operates and no one can demonstrate otherwise. Its different to a “paper” national currency which is at least backed by the assets of the national government, its tax raising powers etc.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AcousticallyChallenged Posted December 30, 2020 Share Posted December 30, 2020 Just now, Amadeus said: Why? 1 bitcoin isn't worth the same as another, and as the supply dries up, that'll become more and more of an issue. Exchanges will reject coins that have been previously associated with dodgy addresses, and ever more people are using it to get a few grams of weed or pay ransomware ransoms. What do you do when there's a disparity in those values? 'Virgin' coins are actually proposed to be regulated differently by the financial action task force. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AcousticallyChallenged Posted December 30, 2020 Share Posted December 30, 2020 1 minute ago, John Wright said: Because that’s what it is and how it operates and no one can demonstrate otherwise. Its different to a “paper” national currency which is at least backed by the assets of the national government, its tax raising powers etc.. All the concept boils down to is a big ledger of who has paid who what. It just so happens, that finding the next block in the blockchain means you can also give yourself a few bitcoins as a pat on the back, because you're proving you've done a certain amount of computation to get there, and you've beaten everyone else to it. You also get the transaction fees for all the payments in that block. Each block is akin to a page in the ledger, but each page carries a signature of all the pages before it, so you can independently verify you have the true copy. To get a signature, you also have to find a random number that when combined with all of those transactions, and the signature of all the previous pages, meets certain criteria. This is a guessing game and quite expensive computationally. The value comes from the energy put into the guessing game, incentivizing honesty on the part of the miners finding the next block in the ledger. Commonly referred to as proof-of-work. Other approaches rely on proof-of-stake, where you're essentially putting your collateral on the line to confirm a set of transactions. It's just very fashionable as it is it's own sizable entity. But as a whole, I'm yet to be convinced it's going to be of true value as-is. There are a lot of things that need to happen before blockchains are the way forward. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tetchtyke Posted December 30, 2020 Share Posted December 30, 2020 8 minutes ago, Amadeus said: Why? Bitcoin has been open to all sorts of doginess since day one, as anyone who's had their computer used to mine Bitcoin will tell you. It has investor faith because it was the first one, but with this type of thing that is a) fragile and b) not necessarily a sign of legitimacy. Look at the South Sea Bubble. There are plenty of Ponzi schemes surrounding cryptocurrency- I know people scammed by KaratBars who lost thousands, even though it had plenty of pseudo-legitimacy with celebrity backers- and whilst I don't necessarily think MannCoin is that blatant it also relies on the premise that there will be an endless supply of new people to drive the price up. I wouldn't invest anything I didn't expect to never see again. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mad_manx Posted December 30, 2020 Share Posted December 30, 2020 (edited) 3 hours ago, John Wright said: It’s nothing more than a Dutch tulip scam hysteria. Bit coins don’t exist, they have no intrinsic value, and depends on enough people being greedy and gullible enough to bid for them, thereby attaching an illusory value. Those in early may make money. Those holding them when music stops will lose. Isn't that that same for anything money can buy including gold / diamonds etc All based on supply and demand and the faith of the people who hold it.. Till the mid 1800's aluminium was more expensive than gold. Cheap extraction techniques reduced the price. https://www.theatlantic.com/technology/archive/2014/11/aluminum-was-once-one-of-the-most-expensive-metals-in-the-world/382447/ Same with diamonds. Supply is very controlled to keep prices in check. If someone identifies a technique to isolate gold from sea water ( plenty of gold there) gold prices would plummet. I believe it will be a combination of nano tech or biological tech ( algae etc ) which could potentially do this.. With bitcoin you know exactly how many exist and how many each wallet has . In a way its more transparent than bank accounts . And you cannot produce more than the max supply. I believe there will be many boom and bust cycles over the years till it finds its true value. Regarding the craziness of bitcoin mining and electricity use im not sure its crazy at all To any aliens coming to earth digging up tons of earth for gold and diamonds and then locking them in safe will seem equally bonkers. :-) Edited December 30, 2020 by mad_manx Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaymann Posted December 30, 2020 Share Posted December 30, 2020 (edited) 14 minutes ago, tetchtyke said: Bitcoin has been open to all sorts of doginess since day one, as anyone who's had their computer used to mine Bitcoin will tell you. It has investor faith because it was the first one, but with this type of thing that is a) fragile and b) not necessarily a sign of legitimacy. Look at the South Sea Bubble. There are plenty of Ponzi schemes surrounding cryptocurrency- I know people scammed by KaratBars who lost thousands, even though it had plenty of pseudo-legitimacy with celebrity backers- and whilst I don't necessarily think MannCoin is that blatant it also relies on the premise that there will be an endless supply of new people to drive the price up. I wouldn't invest anything I didn't expect to never see again. A lack of understanding here. Bitcoin is not a ponzi or scam in its own right. There are individuals who try to monetise on its success. Much like viagra, gold and physical cash scammers. It doesn't mean there's an issue with the product. If someone falls for a crypto ponzi, they'd likely fall for a gold ponzi too. Also the concept of BTC being used for illegitimate purposes isn't really true, other than stories created to drive fear. Yes it is used for illicit purposes, but no more than FIAT currencies or payment platforms like Western Union. As I understand it, MannCoin isn't taking anyone's cash, nor is it asking for people to pay? Crypto should be treated like any other investment, it may lose value, it may gain value. Do your own research and if you don't get it, it doesn't mean its dodgy. Edited December 30, 2020 by jaymann 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ian rush Posted December 30, 2020 Share Posted December 30, 2020 As far as i could see, the value to the manncoin owners was on the retained 15% or whatever % it was. If there's take up and it becomes an accepted and acceptable means of paying for stuff, they have a big chunk. That said I still dont 'get' crypto stuff much like i struggle with the idea that companies burning cash and not profiting can be worth silly money (uber etc.). The block signature stuff i see as being a self perpetuating by-product to keep the confidence rolling. 20th century guy that i am. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tetchtyke Posted December 30, 2020 Share Posted December 30, 2020 The idea behind this crypto is that you release 8m coins, everyone takes it up, and so the value of each coin increases dramatically. If 32m people want 8m coins they're worth more. This is what happened with Bitcoin. I don't think it's a scam as they're not asking for money. But you've got two hopes of this taking off: Bob, and no. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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