Spat between Chief Minister and Dr Glover

[Andy Onchan]

One thing in particular that hit me between the eyes whilst reading it was.... how can IOM possibly develop a BioMed sector when it didn't even have the basic legal structures in place to handle simple and basic and things like movement & consent of samples of various kinds between jurisdictions? Just goes to show how shallow some of these DfE projects are.

[SleepyJoe]

On 12/13/2020 at 8:10 PM, Chris Thomas said:

Evening.

Post Office is not being corporatised. That is Tynwald and Board policy. It is - or should be at least - an arms length statutory board. 

Does the workforce have a say?

[piebaps]

1 hour ago, Apple said:

Dr Glover's report indicates border restrictions sooner than we did would have made some difference. 

 

Howard said that in Tynwald yesterday

[Barlow]

1 hour ago, Apple said:

Dr Glover's report indicates border restrictions sooner than we did would have made some difference. 

  

26 minutes ago, piebaps said:

Howard said that in Tynwald yesterday

  Aside from all the usual social media commentary at the time, so did a number of letters to the newspaper (well before actual lockdown)

A somewhat sharper brain may have been required in charge.

 

Edited December 31, 2020 by Barlow

[Non-Believer]

6 minutes ago, Barlow said:

  

  Aside from all the usual social media commentary, so did a number of letters to the newspaper.

A somewhat sharper brain may have been required in charge.

 

To be fair, HQ would have had a lot of angles to consider, he would also have been under a great deal of pressure from commerce to keep those eventual restrictions as light as possible. Consideration of all those things undoubtedly delayed any decision.

[Barlow]

1 minute ago, Non-Believer said:

To be fair, HQ would have had a lot of angles to consider, he would also have been under a great deal of pressure from commerce to keep those eventual restrictions as light as possible. Consideration of all those things undoubtedly delayed any decision.

I don't doubt that. I'm just making the point that there were some loud voices making the point that the borders should be closed. Decisions were needed quickly but when letters in the newspaper - slower than even 'snail mail' - were shouting the point then it makes you wonder who and what were the powers of persuasion to keep them open.

 

 

 

[Andy Onchan]

35 minutes ago, Non-Believer said:

To be fair, HQ would have had a lot of angles to consider, he would also have been under a great deal of pressure from commerce to keep those eventual restrictions as light as possible. Consideration of all those things undoubtedly delayed any decision.

I think you give him far too much credit. He was probably waiting for decisions/guidance from PHE & Ministry of Justice. The last IOM had to deal with something anywhere approaching COVID was WW2, so no experience to call on.

[rachomics]

The real delay was when they had decided to close the border and then spent a week at the briefings giving weighted warnings that if you had relatives in the UK they might want to come back soon. They should have just shut it on or around the 20th/21st March. 

[John Wright]

39 minutes ago, Barlow said:

I don't doubt that. I'm just making the point that there were some loud voices making the point that the borders should be closed. Decisions were needed quickly but when letters in the newspaper - slower than even 'snail mail' - were shouting the point then it makes you wonder who and what were the powers of persuasion to keep them open.

 

46 minutes ago, Non-Believer said:

To be fair, HQ would have had a lot of angles to consider, he would also have been under a great deal of pressure from commerce to keep those eventual restrictions as light as possible. Consideration of all those things undoubtedly delayed any decision.

and @rachomics

I think the CD lock down dates were 24/3 Guernsey, 26/3 IOM and 29/3 Jersey. 20/3 just wasn’t possible.

Im not sure any of them could have done it without permission from the Whitehall mandarins in the DoJ - who would have had to consult with Health, PHE,  if not SAGE.

I don’t think any amount of letter writing, e-mail sending, or the wailing or gnashing of teeth on social media would have got us there any sooner. Nor would advice locally by our health experts ( who were off island, you’ll recall )

Whitehall was grinding exceeding slow. Boris was avoiding COBRA. UK would have been negotiating with the devolved administration and trying to deal with the Dependent and Overseas Territories. Closing borders wasn’t UK/English policy. It may have taken some persuading,

One of the OT is currently dealing with a similar mess. Can’t remember if it’s BVI or Cayman. They’ve passed a law legalising Recreational and Medicinal Cannabis. The Governor has passed Royal Assent up the line FCDO. They are dragging feet because it involves drugs and medicines. They have an agreement with UK about medicine regulation and UK is responsible for their compliance with various international conventions that govern drugs. UK Health have said no, not until the OT has a regulation agency in place. Something the legislation doesn’t provide for. It’s 6 months on. Still no progress. Not a no, perhaps a maybe, but soooo slow.

 

[Happier diner]

13 minutes ago, rachomics said:

The real delay was when they had decided to close the border and then spent a week at the briefings giving weighted warnings that if you had relatives in the UK they might want to come back soon. They should have just shut it on or around the 20th/21st March. 

If you are only considering the spread of the virus then I think you are correct. However I think the decision balanced this whilst still considering the human rights of residents to return to their homes and families. 

Ultimately this caused more people to be sick,I'll and some sadly die.

I not defending either approach, only saying that there was no single right decision. 

Edited December 31, 2020 by Happier diner
Typo

[Banker]

2 hours ago, Apple said:

Dr Glover's report indicates border restrictions sooner than we did would have made some difference. 

Of course going against the arrogance of the political / medical egos currently trying to manage the Covid situation was only going to end in tears. I would have thought that some flexibility may have been afforded in the best interests of people on the island but then I am always unsurprised when we manage to shoot ourselves in the foot.

Even if no actual lives are saved the avoidance of having experienced the damaging and traumatic effect of Covid may have been avoided for someone and their family. That would have been worth it.

Ah well, we will just have to wait now for the probably damaging reports in the Daily Wail et al to show how "brilliantly" and "effectively" we managed the outbreak.

Knighthoods all round then.

Quite so. 

I see senior managers in DHSC start their vaccinations next week. I assume all the older people and those with acceptable and special clinical needs have been done or will be over this weekend ? 

No vulnerable people getting vaccinated first just health staff as far as I know although they may do some n elderly ones in hospital for a photo shoot!

[John Wright]

38 minutes ago, rachomics said:

The real delay was when they had decided to close the border and then spent a week at the briefings giving weighted warnings that if you had relatives in the UK they might want to come back soon. They should have just shut it on or around the 20th/21st March. 

However the borders were effectively shut a week earlier than 26/3  in that anyone arriving after 23.59 on 17/3 had to self isolate. Would physical closure on 20th have made a difference, assuming everyone arriving did the self isolation?

[tetchtyke]

1 hour ago, rachomics said:

The real delay was when they had decided to close the border and then spent a week at the briefings giving weighted warnings that if you had relatives in the UK they might want to come back soon. They should have just shut it on or around the 20th/21st March. 

The border effectively closed a week earlier when the mandatory 14 days quarantine was put in place on 17 March (the same day France shut). I'm really not convinced that much more could have been done, other countries didn't act any sooner.

The health aspect was only one side of it too, look how much stick they got when they did shut the border and left Manx residents stuck across the world with no money and no way of getting home. And that was after two weeks of unsubtle hinting.

And look at the smartarse ITV reporter labelling the recent changes from last week a "kneejerk reaction". https://www.itv.com/news/granada/2020-12-22/behind-the-borders-the-day-the-isle-of-man-reacted-to-the-new-strain

Edited December 31, 2020 by tetchtyke

[Apple]

3 hours ago, Banker said:

No vulnerable people getting vaccinated first just health staff as far as I know although they may do some n elderly ones in hospital for a photo shoot!

I hope they do jag the elderly health staff first publicly - I think there would be a good few of them.😁

[Apple]

4 hours ago, piebaps said:

Howard said that in Tynwald yesterday

I didn't hear it but I can go with that.