Vaccine- who will have it?

[Apple]

10 minutes ago, Banker said:

UK health authorities are considering making it compulsory for care Home staff as in some areas it was only 70/75% take up .

Yes, I saw that. Presumably they will not then employ anyone without it. Will this apply to those working in hospitals and vulnerable people / patient areas - say like theatres and ITU's ?

[Apple]

Interesting comments on CNN about whether or not to share vaccination status.

https://edition.cnn.com/2021/04/20/health/covid-vaccine-status-health-privacy-wellness/index.html

[hampsterkahn]

7 hours ago, Apple said:

Yes, I saw that. Presumably they will not then employ anyone without it. Will this apply to those working in hospitals and vulnerable people / patient areas - say like theatres and ITU's ?

 

Vaccination is not compulsory, and hasn’t been since 1948, I believe.

It is voluntary. 

It is a medical procedure and as such requires informed consent.

Any pressure to comply could be  seen as coercion.

For new staff it would seem less  controversial, as it can be introduced as a condition of employment.

For existing staff , it is more complex.

A refusal in response to a managerial request could be cited as justification for disciplinary  action- had there been attempts to redeployment?- had a non-coercive attempt been made to re-educate the vaccine hesitant ? A new contract might be offered, but  cannot be imposed.

The care home has a very clear duty of care to its residents; it also has a duty of care to its  staff.In this case it would seem obvious to exclude anyone un-vaccinated from any area where Covid is a risk to residents and staff.Especially in a pandemic, if prevalence rates were high.

Would it be reasonable to refuse a potential candidate a post on the basis that as a vaccine refuser or “hesitant”,they  must lack the necessary knowledge, empathy and professionalism to be appointed as a carer to the extremely vulnerable ?

Most people who have relatives in a care home, hospital, or environment where they are especially vulnerable, would I suspect  say,  “Yes”.

Politicians? - they will say pretty much anything.They will not be held to account.

The legal system? - will await a test case, which may take years.

The unions? -  seeing the dilemma between the individual rights of their members and the overall communal  responsibility- will sit on the fence.

- But tomorrow morning,  the care home manager, the ward manager, the the theatre superintendent, etc.will  have  a duty rosta to fill..

 

 

 

 

[TerryFuchwit]

I think employers will be stepping into very dodgy legal territory on forced vaccinations for staff or refusing someone a job because they are not vaccinated.

I'm not even sure you would be allowed to ask that question or state it in an advert.  It's a voluntary thing.  It isn't a professional qualification or verification of competence to do the job.

I do wonder what the percentage is of people not taking up the vaccine.  I've encountered about 5 people recently who are not having it. (I'm saying 5 as that triggers Pongo into linking together anyone that says "about 5" as being the same person).  Two in my immediate family and a taxi driver included.

[wrighty]

36 minutes ago, TerryFuchwit said:

I think employers will be stepping into very dodgy legal territory on forced vaccinations for staff or refusing someone a job because they are not vaccinated.

I'm not even sure you would be allowed to ask that question or state it in an advert.  It's a voluntary thing.  It isn't a professional qualification or verification of competence to do the job.

I do wonder what the percentage is of people not taking up the vaccine.  I've encountered about 5 people recently who are not having it. (I'm saying 5 as that triggers Pongo into linking together anyone that says "about 5" as being the same person).  Two in my immediate family and a taxi driver included.

I’ve worked in several places where I’ve had to prove vaccination or have antibody testing before being allowed to start. It’s not unusual in healthcare. Don’t see why covid should be any different. 
 

There are some anti-vaxxers around - I had a conversation with one recently. But like the Flat Earth thread on here. 

[hampsterkahn]

17 minutes ago, wrighty said:

 

There are some anti-vaxxers around - I had a conversation with one recently. But like the Flat Earth thread on here. 

Who needs anti-vaxxers when we have a health minister  to cause vaccine hesitancy by  glibly wading  in relating a fatal anaphylactic reaction -to later give reassurance that it was “ a misunderstanding” and they weren’t dead.

[snowman]

So, the jab works

 

 

Edited April 21, 2021 by snowman

[hampsterkahn]

“Not only do they work, but they work astonishingly well” to quote prof.Calum Semple in that same article.

[Gladys]

8 hours ago, hampsterkahn said:

 

Vaccination is not compulsory, and hasn’t been since 1948, I believe.

It is voluntary. 

It is a medical procedure and as such requires informed consent.

Any pressure to comply could be  seen as coercion.

For new staff it would seem less  controversial, as it can be introduced as a condition of employment.

For existing staff , it is more complex.

A refusal in response to a managerial request could be cited as justification for disciplinary  action- had there been attempts to redeployment?- had a non-coercive attempt been made to re-educate the vaccine hesitant ? A new contract might be offered, but  cannot be imposed.

The care home has a very clear duty of care to its residents; it also has a duty of care to its  staff.In this case it would seem obvious to exclude anyone un-vaccinated from any area where Covid is a risk to residents and staff.Especially in a pandemic, if prevalence rates were high.

Would it be reasonable to refuse a potential candidate a post on the basis that as a vaccine refuser or “hesitant”,they  must lack the necessary knowledge, empathy and professionalism to be appointed as a carer to the extremely vulnerable ?

Most people who have relatives in a care home, hospital, or environment where they are especially vulnerable, would I suspect  say,  “Yes”.

Politicians? - they will say pretty much anything.They will not be held to account.

The legal system? - will await a test case, which may take years.

The unions? -  seeing the dilemma between the individual rights of their members and the overall communal  responsibility- will sit on the fence.

- But tomorrow morning,  the care home manager, the ward manager, the the theatre superintendent, etc.will  have  a duty rosta to fill..

 

 

 

 

The unions' position is potentially even more ambivalent as they have been demanding vax for their workforce (the buses), but if it becomes a condition of employment then individual rights will be cited.  There is also the issue of each employee's responsibility not to harm their fellow workers, so how the unions react is going to be interesting.  

[Apple]

Didn't the same thing happen with AIDS -that people had to be tested working in the clinical arena.

But that was then, this is now.

Probably need to see what UK / EU decides so there is consistency when staff move around. 

 

[madmanxpilot]

Perhaps vaccine and testing certification warrants a thread all of it own. This however, comes as no surprise and indicates the importance of a coordinated international approach to the matter.

http://news.sky.com/story/covid-19-at-least-100-fake-coronavirus-test-certificates-are-used-by-uk-arrivals-every-day-it-is-revealed-12282433

[Andy Onchan]

19 minutes ago, madmanxpilot said:

Perhaps vaccine and testing certification warrants a thread all of it own. This however, comes as no surprise and indicates the importance of a coordinated international approach to the matter.

http://news.sky.com/story/covid-19-at-least-100-fake-coronavirus-test-certificates-are-used-by-uk-arrivals-every-day-it-is-revealed-12282433

Given the numbers turning up from India etc I'm surprised it's only a 100/day.

[snowman]

35 minutes ago, Andy Onchan said:

Given the numbers turning up from India etc I'm surprised it's only a 100/day.

How many ?

[doc.fixit]

Reuters quoted 3000 up to today and potentially 9000 total.

[Roger Mexico]

58 minutes ago, Andy Onchan said:

Given the numbers turning up from India etc I'm surprised it's only a 100/day.

If you read the article they just take any documentation not in English on trust and let them in anyway.  The 100  a day are just the obvious fakes in English.

Maybe that's the solution to the transiting UK problem.  Produce everything in Manx.