Vaccine- who will have it?

[monasqueen]

"Austria will treat jabbed travellers as unvaccinated unless they have had a booster within 360 days, or just under 12 months, of their second dose. This means they will be required to pay for a Covid test to secure entry. Israel has even tougher rules."

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2021/11/04/holidaymakers-face-travel-restrictions-without-covid-booster/

[AcousticallyChallenged]

On 11/4/2021 at 12:48 PM, Cambon said:

Why should they be vaccinated if against their will? As I have said from the start, you get vaccinated to protect yourself. If they don't want to protect themselves it is their call. Darwinism? 

If you're a healthcare worker, there is an array of vaccines you have to have before starting work. Those are non-negotiable. Why would this one be any different?

[hampsterkahn]

Non vaccinated  staff member issues.

The bereaved relatives of a patient who has died from Covid a  little while after a non-vaccinated member of staff on a medical  unit becomes  ill  with Covid ,may feel that there has been a failure of duty of care by the hospital in allowing that staff member, who they knew   to be unvaccinated, access to clinically vulnerable patients such as their relative.

The unvaccinated staff member may later  claim that  they had not been   been properly and  fully advised regarding the need for vaccination. They might maintain that had they received good counsel, they  would have given consent for it ; They might say that given the option, they would  have agreed to be moved to a less clinically critical area.

 

 

 

[monasqueen]

If a hospital staff member can refuse to be vaccinated, can a patient refuse to be treated by someone who has not been vaccinated?

[cheesypeas]

I guess now we (seemingly) have anti viral drugs that are effective against covid, the anti vaxers will be clapping all the way to ICU.

[Banker]

Vaccinations mandatory for NHS staff by Spring as predicted 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-59215282

 

will we follow suit, we haven’t for care workers, maybe a ploy to fill vacancies here!

[Roger Mexico]

The rates that care workers get paid, I doubt many would relocate to another country just to avoid vaccination.  Any current resisters will probably either give in or move to other low-paid employment.  Given the high turnover that the sector has, it will only be unnoticeable amount within that.

[wrighty]

2 hours ago, Roger Mexico said:

The rates that care workers get paid, I doubt many would relocate to another country just to avoid vaccination.  Any current resisters will probably either give in or move to other low-paid employment.  Given the high turnover that the sector has, it will only be unnoticeable amount within that.

Fully agree with your first point. I think however that despite the high turnover, far higher than the unvaccinated proportion who will have to leave, there’ll still be a noticeable increase in vacancy rates and a corresponding decrease in care available.

[Banker]

18 minutes ago, wrighty said:

Fully agree with your first point. I think however that despite the high turnover, far higher than the unvaccinated proportion who will have to leave, there’ll still be a noticeable increase in vacancy rates and a corresponding decrease in care available.

Do you think there’s any desire from politicians here to push for mandatory vaccinations in Care or frontline health?

[Roger Mexico]

20 minutes ago, wrighty said:

[...]  I think however that despite the high turnover, far higher than the unvaccinated proportion who will have to leave, there’ll still be a noticeable increase in vacancy rates and a corresponding decrease in care available.

That will be true, but I think it will be due to other factors, alternative employment being better paid and less recruitment being possible from outside the UK[1], plus obvious things such as burn-out.  These are going to be more important that the few refusniks, though it's possible it could feed into general low morale.  It certainly has the usual feeling of "Let's blame everyone except the people in charge".

Of course whether it is even medically necessary is another matter - there seems little difference in transmission from vaccinated and non-vaccinated, though there still seems some (if waning) benefit in not catching it.  But the difference is probably marginal enough that the same monitoring and protection measures will be needed for both.

 

[1]  The survey I linked to shows this, but says there's no evidence of a differential in non-UK citizens leaving particular jobs.  But it's not certain if the ones who do are staying within the sector or even the country.

[Banker]

Looks like mandatory vaccinations for health staff is being discussed 

https://gef.im/2021/11/10/no-decision-on-compulsory-vaccines-for-health-workers/

[Raffles]

On 11/9/2021 at 10:50 PM, Roger Mexico said:

 

Of course whether it is even medically necessary is another matter - there seems little difference in transmission from vaccinated and non-vaccinated, though there still seems some (if waning) benefit in not catching it. 

 

Around 63% less likely to transmit it if vaccinated. According to several studies.

[Roger Mexico]

2 hours ago, Raffles said:

Around 63% less likely to transmit it if vaccinated. According to several studies.

Not according to the latest research I'm afraid, using a study reported in the Lancet.  We already knew that the vaccinated and unvaccinated had similar viral loads if they did catch Covid (though vaccination did seem to reduce levels a bit faster) and this latest suggests no reduction in household transmission.  An American study (based on UK data) suggests a small difference in the first few months but that then faded.  The data used in the Lancet study was based on smaller datasets, so it's possible that it might have missed smaller and transitory effects.

All these only really applied to the Delta variant, vaccination does seem to have provided some mitigation with the earlier Alpha and pre-Alpha variants, but the higher infectivity of Delta seems to have over-ridden this.

The point is that, even if there is some greater protection against transmission (as opposed to infection) that the effect is only marginal and that means that for example physical protection for vulnerable patients would need to be the same with both vaccinated and unvaccinated staff, both are equally likely to transmit the infection.

[wrighty]

51 minutes ago, Roger Mexico said:

Not according to the latest research I'm afraid, using a study reported in the Lancet.  We already knew that the vaccinated and unvaccinated had similar viral loads if they did catch Covid (though vaccination did seem to reduce levels a bit faster) and this latest suggests no reduction in household transmission.  An American study (based on UK data) suggests a small difference in the first few months but that then faded.  The data used in the Lancet study was based on smaller datasets, so it's possible that it might have missed smaller and transitory effects.

All these only really applied to the Delta variant, vaccination does seem to have provided some mitigation with the earlier Alpha and pre-Alpha variants, but the higher infectivity of Delta seems to have over-ridden this.

The point is that, even if there is some greater protection against transmission (as opposed to infection) that the effect is only marginal and that means that for example physical protection for vulnerable patients would need to be the same with both vaccinated and unvaccinated staff, both are equally likely to transmit the infection.

In conclusion therefore there is no scientific basis for forcing staff to be vaccinated in terms of protecting vulnerable patients. 
 

Sajid Javid has a big downer on unvaxxed staff - he basically said “if they can’t be bothered to get vaccinated they can f off and get another job” (I paraphrase). The only scientific basis though is that unvaxxed staff are a danger to themselves and should be kept out of high risk environments where they may catch covid from patients (PPE is not 100%), and if they do end up adding to the burden on the health service. Logically therefore it should also apply to unvaxxed visitors, who at the moment just need to be LFT negative, I think. 

[James Blonde]

14 minutes ago, wrighty said:

In conclusion therefore there is no scientific basis for forcing staff to be vaccinated in terms of protecting vulnerable patients. 
 

Sajid Javid has a big downer on unvaxxed staff - he basically said “if they can’t be bothered to get vaccinated they can f off and get another job” (I paraphrase). The only scientific basis though is that unvaxxed staff are a danger to themselves and should be kept out of high risk environments where they may catch covid from patients (PPE is not 100%), and if they do end up adding to the burden on the health service. Logically therefore it should also apply to unvaxxed visitors, who at the moment just need to be LFT negative, I think. 

I've said it before, but I truly believe the vaccine mandate is just being used as another weapon to club the NHS to death. 

The right wing can then cut it up and share it among their friends.