General Thread for the election (old Electioneering starting early thread from Local News)

[Josem]

2 hours ago, Zarley said:

If that's true for infant mortality rates, would it not also apply to mortality rates in almost every area as most "difficult" cases are sent across? (Aside from when there simply isn't the time.)

It's definitely possible - I do not know. The explanation by @Roger Mexico is persuasive to me.

My gut feeling is that it comes down to how you define someone as "Manx" - our imprecise English language has a bunch of people that might be considered Manx in various contexts, and not in other contexts.

 

For example:

A) PersonA has 4 grandparents born in IOM and 2 parents born in IOM, but the mother gives birth in Liverpool. PersonA tragically dies a week after birth - is that person "Manx", despite never having been to IOM? What if they live be to 70 years old and never visit the Isle of Man?

B) PersonB has all ancestors born elsewhere, but is born in IOM. Are they Manx? 

C) PersonC has all ancestors born elsewhere, is born in London, and moves with their family to IOM as a young child. After living in IOM for 70 years, are they "Manx"?

D) Next year, I'll have lived most of my adult life here. Am I Manx?

I certainly have no confidence on how to answer A or B or C* or even D**. There are various ideas of Manx as a concept of nationality, ethnicity, and culture - and few of them are likely to be binary. I could imagine strong arguments in favour each of A/B/C/D being Manx.

 

*I met someone last year who fits the description of "C", and he didn't think of himself as "Manx" - so even different people who fit these demographics might have different ideas around self-identity.

**Hence, I describe myself as "becoming Manx by choice". I doubt I'll ever get all the way there, perhaps it's a gradual process that I'll never achieve? I don't know.

[wrighty]

2 hours ago, Zarley said:

If that's true for infant mortality rates, would it not also apply to mortality rates in almost every area as most "difficult" cases are sent across? (Aside from when there simply isn't the time.)

Does anyone know how a Manx death in hospital across is recorded? Is it added to the mortality rate here, or there?

Not sure, but when it comes to coroner's jurisdiction it's where actual death occurred.  It's been brought up before regarding TT fatalities - dead at the side of the road, inquest is here, but make it across to Aintree and die there then it's the Liverpool coroner who takes it despite almost all the circumstances surrounding the death happening here.

[Zarley]

38 minutes ago, Josem said:

It's definitely possible - I do not know. The explanation by @Roger Mexico is persuasive to me.

My gut feeling is that it comes down to how you define someone as "Manx" - our imprecise English language has a bunch of people that might be considered Manx in various contexts, and not in other contexts.

 

For example:

A) PersonA has 4 grandparents born in IOM and 2 parents born in IOM, but the mother gives birth in Liverpool. PersonA tragically dies a week after birth - is that person "Manx", despite never having been to IOM? What if they live be to 70 years old and never visit the Isle of Man?

B) PersonB has all ancestors born elsewhere, but is born in IOM. Are they Manx? 

C) PersonC has all ancestors born elsewhere, is born in London, and moves with their family to IOM as a young child. After living in IOM for 70 years, are they "Manx"?

D) Next year, I'll have lived most of my adult life here. Am I Manx?

I certainly have no confidence on how to answer A or B or C* or even D**. There are various ideas of Manx as a concept of nationality, ethnicity, and culture - and few of them are likely to be binary. I could imagine strong arguments in favour each of A/B/C/D being Manx.

 

*I met someone last year who fits the description of "C", and he didn't think of himself as "Manx" - so even different people who fit these demographics might have different ideas around self-identity.

**Hence, I describe myself as "becoming Manx by choice". I doubt I'll ever get all the way there, perhaps it's a gradual process that I'll never achieve? I don't know.

I should have said Isle of Man resident. Sorry. 

[Apple]

21 minutes ago, Zarley said:

I should have said Isle of Man resident. Sorry. 

It's ok. This one gets peddled out every year. And again the same conclusions will be  reached......

[John Wright]

1 hour ago, wrighty said:

Not sure, but when it comes to coroner's jurisdiction it's where actual death occurred.  It's been brought up before regarding TT fatalities - dead at the side of the road, inquest is here, but make it across to Aintree and die there then it's the Liverpool coroner who takes it despite almost all the circumstances surrounding the death happening here.

It’d be an English death certificate. So wouldn’t appear on anything recorded in the Manx Register of Deaths.

Local guy sent to Liverpool for spinal op, successful, sent to Southport for rehab, caught Covid, died in the convalescent hospital. Death recorded in England. Hasn’t appeared on our Covid deaths.

[Roger Mexico]

All the mortality figures are based on registered deaths, so if deaths occurred in the UK, they won't be included in these figures.  However deaths off-Island may still result in inquests here if the body is brought back to the Island.

[Andy Onchan]

55 minutes ago, Roger Mexico said:

All the mortality figures are based on registered deaths, so if deaths occurred in the UK, they won't be included in these figures.  However deaths off-Island may still result in inquests here if the body is brought back to the Island.

In what circumstances would that happen and how often? I don't think I've ever read/heard of that happening.

[Roger Mexico]

24 minutes ago, Andy Onchan said:

In what circumstances would that happen and how often? I don't think I've ever read/heard of that happening.

I don't think full inquests are that common unless there are suspicious circumstances and it's felt the investigation in the country of death needs adding to.  But it is legally possible and you sometimes see inquests in the UK reported where the death has happened abroad.

[John Wright]

1 hour ago, Andy Onchan said:

In what circumstances would that happen and how often? I don't think I've ever read/heard of that happening.

It’s possible. Especially where the death wasn’t in England and there are reasons to not accept the foreign death enquiry as adequate.

It could happen with a death in England, but you’d have to show good grounds that the English inquest wasn’t good.

[Apple]

2 hours ago, Andy Onchan said:

In what circumstances would that happen and how often? I don't think I've ever read/heard of that happening.

Plane crash in Mersey estuary ?

[John Wright]

50 minutes ago, Apple said:

Plane crash in Mersey estuary ?

I think the inquests were opened in England, adjourned, and possibly never resumed. There was a full AAIB investigation and report that would have rendered a full inquest unnecessary.

[dilligaf]

23 minutes ago, John Wright said:

I think the inquests were opened in England, adjourned, and possibly never resumed. There was a full AAIB investigation and report that would have rendered a full inquest unnecessary.

I thought that was a bit of a whitewash to be honest. Such a tragedy for the  family and nursing staff. 

[John Wright]

1 minute ago, dilligaf said:

I thought that was a bit of a whitewash to be honest. Such a tragedy for the  family and nursing staff. 

AAIB are very thorough, and not in the pockets of IoMG. You’re right. It was a tragedy, for the 5 concerned and their families.

And I’d agree that the way the IoMG treated the families, making them pay the costs for return of the bodies of Mr & Mrs Charlton. At least that has now changed. Repatriation costs of transferred patients are met now.

[dilligaf]

12 minutes ago, John Wright said:

AAIB are very thorough, and not in the pockets of IoMG. You’re right. It was a tragedy, for the 5 concerned and their families.

And I’d agree that the way the IoMG treated the families, making them pay the costs for return of the bodies of Mr & Mrs Charlton. At least that has now changed. Repatriation costs of transferred patients are met now.

Yes. Such a contrast to how they handled the Solway Harvester.They did so well with that, but to my mind it overshadowed the plane in the  Mersey. 

[Barlow]

8 minutes ago, dilligaf said:

Yes. Such a contrast to how they handled the Solway Harvester.They did so well with that, but to my mind it overshadowed the plane in the  Mersey. 

You can't really compare the two, but your point stands.