Banker Posted March 25, 2022 Share Posted March 25, 2022 2 hours ago, doc.fixit said: .........and people enjoy going to such events? Lots will & I expect it will be fully sold 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jackwhite Posted March 25, 2022 Share Posted March 25, 2022 48 minutes ago, english zloty said: DFE tagline Go hard, get pissed, get covered in piss, go home Some people pay a lot of money for that! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Max Power Posted March 25, 2022 Share Posted March 25, 2022 1 hour ago, Annoymouse said: TT this year will be very interesting and I think it could well be the make or break point, it could be like an old pair of comfy slippers, like Covid never happened and be a brilliant comeback. Or on the other hand it could be absolute carnage, more smashes due to lack of races/practices, tourists could also be a bit giddy and behave recklessly due to feeling of freedom and no speed limits. This year more than ever will need to be heavily policed I think, I fully expect people to go hard or go home. That's a point but there has been plenty of racing elsewhere and as far as I know, nobody is getting any leeway on their Mountain Course licence qualifying requirements. One can hope that visitors will be wiser, although I believe that the Safety Management System extends to the policing of spectators as much as on event safety. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
0bserver Posted March 25, 2022 Share Posted March 25, 2022 23 minutes ago, Max Power said: One can hope that visitors will be wiser, although I believe that the Safety Management System extends to the policing of spectators as much as on event safety. I hope they provide the so-called marshals with some training about the limits of their 'powers' and to not harass people who may be suffering due to their mental health. We've seen a few occasions where they've arguably overstepped their powers in recent years. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wrighty Posted March 25, 2022 Share Posted March 25, 2022 1 hour ago, Max Power said: One can hope that visitors will be wiser Hope is not really a fully thought through safety strategy, although it seems to be what we have. When it comes to trauma, everyone from the health minister down seems to focus on the races. The racers are not the problem! They crash, and tend to be either ok, or dead. Most trauma that needs intensive work and takes up bed space in Aintree and Nobles are visitors. Having plenty of marshals for racing is not going to help that. 5 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Flint Posted March 25, 2022 Share Posted March 25, 2022 1 minute ago, wrighty said: Hope is not really a fully thought through safety strategy, although it seems to be what we have. When it comes to trauma, everyone from the health minister down seems to focus on the races. The racers are not the problem! They crash, and tend to be either ok, or dead. Most trauma that needs intensive work and takes up bed space in Aintree and Nobles are visitors. Having plenty of marshals for racing is not going to help that. This was my life for 18 years. Racing is racing - and barring the persistent risk of a bike into crowd incident, it is but a sideshow. A high speed collision on the Mountain Road will eventually be subject of an Article 2 inquest. Things may then start to change. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
doc.fixit Posted March 25, 2022 Share Posted March 25, 2022 What's an article 2 then? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Flint Posted March 25, 2022 Share Posted March 25, 2022 17 minutes ago, doc.fixit said: What's an article 2 then? The state's positive obligation to protect life. The current way that route is operated during TT foes not fulfil that requirement. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lxxx Posted March 25, 2022 Share Posted March 25, 2022 4 hours ago, Annoymouse said: TT this year will be very interesting and I think it could well be the make or break point, it could be like an old pair of comfy slippers, like Covid never happened and be a brilliant comeback. Or on the other hand it could be absolute carnage, more smashes due to lack of races/practices, tourists could also be a bit giddy and behave recklessly due to feeling of freedom and no speed limits. This year more than ever will need to be heavily policed I think, I fully expect people to go hard or go home. Is this satire? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
0bserver Posted March 25, 2022 Share Posted March 25, 2022 36 minutes ago, Derek Flint said: The state's positive obligation to protect life. The current way that route is operated during TT foes not fulfil that requirement. Can I ask what would be a way to operate it that would fulfil the requirement? And who decides if it gets treated as Article 2 inquest? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Wright Posted March 25, 2022 Share Posted March 25, 2022 1 hour ago, Derek Flint said: This was my life for 18 years. Racing is racing - and barring the persistent risk of a bike into crowd incident, it is but a sideshow. A high speed collision on the Mountain Road will eventually be subject of an Article 2 inquest. Things may then start to change. 1 hour ago, doc.fixit said: What's an article 2 then? 1 hour ago, Derek Flint said: The state's positive obligation to protect life. The current way that route is operated during TT foes not fulfil that requirement. An Article 2 inquest is held in cases where an individual has died whilst in the custody or close supervision or care of the state. Often this will be an inmate in a prison; a person detained under the Mental Health Act, or, in some cases, where a person is an informal patient within a psychiatric hospital. Under Article 2(2) of the European Convention of Human Rights, the State has an obligation to refrain from the intentional killing and use of force which results in loss of life. Additionally, there is an obligation to take steps to safeguard the life of vulnerable individuals, especially where there is a recognised risk of suicide or harm to others. For these purposes the ‘State’ will also extend to organisations such as NHS hospitals, Trusts, and local authorities. Where an individual has died and there are questions surrounding the involvement of the State and the lack of appropriate safeguarding for that individual, the Coroner will need to consider whether an Article 2 inquest is necessary. Where an Article 2 inquest is held, the Coroner must carry out an enhanced investigation and look at the wider circumstances surrounding the death, rather simply determining when, where and how a person died. Specifically it will need to be considered whether the death was caused by any institutional or systemic failures, rather than an individual act of negligence or neglect. So, to answer the question “who decides”? The coroner will decide. However, to address Del, I can’t see an article 2 inquest ever arising in the circumstances of the TT. Competitors aren’t vulnerable individuals, whose safeguarding and preservation of life has been taken on by the state. Your Art 2 suggestion appears misconceived in legal terms. 3 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
manxman1980 Posted March 25, 2022 Share Posted March 25, 2022 15 minutes ago, John Wright said: Your Art 2 suggestion appears misconceived in legal terms. @Derek Flint Just reinforcing the Police's reputation for trumped up charges? 🤣😛 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheTeapot Posted March 25, 2022 Share Posted March 25, 2022 7 minutes ago, John Wright said: However, to address Del, I can’t see an article 2 inquest ever arising in the circumstances of the TT. Competitors aren’t vulnerable individuals, whose safeguarding and preservation of life has been taken on by the state. Your Art 2 suggestion appears misconceived in legal terms. I think someone might try it though in the right (obviously wrong really) circumstances, and you could see why they might. Say someone travelled over the mountain, maybe a 45 year old local woman taking her 78 year old dad to something in Douglas, something they do every week, but during TT the road has been specifically made one way, and a biker causes an accident while travelling at 120mph in which the ladies dad dies. Someone who found themselves the bereaved in a situation like this may well try to make the case that that change to the road from its normal state is absolutely a failure of all kinds of duty of care stuff. Being a legal bod I'm sure you're right and DFs suggestion is probably wrong, but you can certainly see how and why someone might try, and feel completely justified in doing so. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Passing Time Posted March 25, 2022 Share Posted March 25, 2022 3 minutes ago, TheTeapot said: I think someone might try it though in the right (obviously wrong really) circumstances, and you could see why they might. Say someone travelled over the mountain, maybe a 45 year old local woman taking her 78 year old dad to something in Douglas, something they do every week, but during TT the road has been specifically made one way, and a biker causes an accident while travelling at 120mph in which the ladies dad dies. Someone who found themselves the bereaved in a situation like this may well try to make the case that that change to the road from its normal state is absolutely a failure of all kinds of duty of care stuff. Being a legal bod I'm sure you're right and DFs suggestion is probably wrong, but you can certainly see how and why someone might try, and feel completely justified in doing so. Changes to the traffic direction are signposted and clear. If the car driver has ignored this and headed the wrong way then I don't see how they can blame anybody but themselves Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheTeapot Posted March 25, 2022 Share Posted March 25, 2022 1 minute ago, Passing Time said: Changes to the traffic direction are signposted and clear. If the car driver has ignored this and headed the wrong way then I don't see how they can blame anybody but themselves Nice to see your reading and comprehension skills are as sharp as ever. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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