TT 2022 ??

[ManxTaxPayer]

6 minutes ago, 0bserver said:

 those within the tent will circle the wagons 

Must be a big tent. 

[0bserver]

21 minutes ago, ManxTaxPayer said:

Must be a big tent. 

It's a certified big top.

[Whiskey]

Are the planning meetings any better than they were 25 years ago? Because I sat in one back then and amateur hour was definitely the order of the day. I’m still quite shocked about how poor it was. I’m hoping it’s much improved. 

[Ghost Ship]

2 hours ago, ManxTaxPayer said:

I'm surprised there's such difference of opinion among those who are or have been involved in the running of the races on what I would have thought fundamental procedural points. 

I agree with that.

2 hours ago, ManxTaxPayer said:

That doesn't sound very fair to single anyone out to carry the can. Everyone involved in organising the event is equally to blame, like they will be when the next 'freak accident' occurs. 

And I agree with the first sentence there.  Not sure about the second.

What gets me about the "discussion" around the Mercer accident is that no-one who wasn't involved in it at first-hand (except perhaps the people who investigated what led up to the accident) has a clue as to what actually happened.

Any finger pointing and speculation by anybody else is just that - speculation.  And probably harmful speculation at that.

[Max Power]

1 hour ago, 0bserver said:

I may not know much about the organisation of it, but I know enough to know that it's an amateur operation.

Some of it is by necessity run by amateurs, but that doesn't make it amateur in the sense that you are implying. 

Racing is a fast moving scenario and things don't always develop as you might like them to. I'm sure you have seen the Abu Dhabi F1 GP and the aftermath? The same happens at all forms of sport, no matter how 'professional' it may be. People are human beings, there have been serious consequences at all levels of various sports of people making errors under pressure. 

As you say, you know very little about the organisation, but are willing to slag off those who do based on your prejudices.  

7 minutes ago, Whiskey said:

Are the planning meetings any better than they were 25 years ago? Because I sat in one back then and amateur hour was definitely the order of the day. I’m still quite shocked about how poor it was. I’m hoping it’s much improved. 

I'm not sure which aspect of the planning you are talking about, but there have been huge changes over the past fifteen or so years.

[Ghost Ship]

8 hours ago, paswt said:

It is "Claimed" that the rider was instructed by a marshal .

The official car , with 2 policemen on board were apparently going to the scene of an incident where only one rider had been involved ( and therefore had no reason to attend, "rubbernecking"?)). Did race control approve the course car being on the course and were all marshals advised?

All  riders were instructed at the 'riders briefing' that in the event of a red flag they would be escorted back to the grandstand following a Travelling Marshal, at reduced speed under "waved yellow flags" at all marshalling points.

It was common knowledge ( via Race Control and Manx radio , if memory serves) that the riders would be returning to the grandstand against the course flow , but everyone knew ( or should have known) being led by a TM under waved yellows.  

I have known a rider to ignore a marshals instructions ( mine) after confirming that he had retired then subsequently firing up his bike and rejoining the course with cold tyres.

I have also witnessed Mark Miller pull off the course onto the grass verge ( at Black Hut )and then , thought it acceptable to  push the bike back onto the course against the flow of the course  (while practice continued)  and park it on the course against the wall .

Riders have demonstrably been known to "go off on a frolic of their own" ..... Just saying

Nothing has been confirmed to my knowledge  so it's  " ALL IFFS AND ANDS ".

Previously after an incident a marshal was blamed ,arrested and initially charged with manslaughter  until it was established that they were in no way responsible  and the case was dropped. .......

 

In relation to the "flyers" being posted around the course I would have thought that a statement from Mr Thompson  confirming or rejecting the contents would have been an idea  .

Just saying 

 

Is the reader meant to infer anything in particular from the two examples you give of riders not following a marshal's instructions and from the reference to it being "common knowledge" that riders should only return to the start against the course flow if escorted by a TM?

Or are they just intended to be illustrative general examples of the sort of thing that might go wrong?

If they were intended simply to be the latter, it sort of shows how speculation about what may have happened can be misleading if not harmful.

As I posted earlier, I don't see how posting anonymous flyers stating that Gary Thompson blames the marshals is to anyone's benefit.

(BTW - I'm not particularly pro- or anti-TT, or pro- or anti- the TT "establishment".  My non-Manx wife and I used to go to the TT every year but we stopped after Gene McDonnell's death in 1986.  Nobody was to blame but it all seemed a bit of a  pointless loss of life.  I've still watched it on TV.  Not sure I want to subscribe to this live TT thing)

[Two-lane]

1 hour ago, Ghost Ship said:

(except perhaps the people who investigated what led up to the accident)

The gossiping is a result of the report not being published.

[Ghost Ship]

Gossiping and baseless speculation certainly won't get it published...

[Cambon]

6 hours ago, ManxTaxPayer said:

So are you saying that this is bollocks then?

 

Basically, yes. It may have been a single vehicle crash, but he died. That becomes a police matter. 

[Cambon]

5 hours ago, 0bserver said:

The TT is just amateur hour when you boil it down. There's a few very highly paid civil servants. Lots of taxpayers cash, but (like everything) zero accountability. 

At the end of the day somebody fucked up (badly) and should carry the can for what happened. They should also never be involved in the TT again.

I remember the day well. Bad crash. Fatality. Road would not be opened before midnight. Manx Radio announced that riders would be returning to the grandstand in the opposite direction. 12-15 riders decided that the MR announcement was their instruction to go back. Marshalls at Sulby red flagged them . Most stopped , but a few carried on. The Mercer crash followed.

They are professional racers. They knew that they would be escorted back. The marshalls at the incident were probably extremely shocked by the crash. Marshalls at Sulby tried to stop them. 

[0bserver]

15 minutes ago, Cambon said:

The marshalls at the incident were probably extremely shocked by the crash

What kind of specialist training do they receive to be able to handle such situations?

[HeliX]

13 minutes ago, 0bserver said:

What kind of specialist training do they receive to be able to handle such situations?

https://www.iomttmarshals.com/training

[Cambon]

22 minutes ago, 0bserver said:

What kind of specialist training do they receive to be able to handle such situations?

Training is a wonderful thing. However, until there is a real situation, nobody knows how anyone will react. I am sure, with the mess to clear up, traumatised spectators, traumatised novice marshalls and other people, racers wishing to return to the grandstand were low on the priority list. 

[paswt]

58 minutes ago, Cambon said:

Basically, yes. It may have been a single vehicle crash, but he died. That becomes a police matter. 

I ram not disputing that the police may be required to make a report after a fatal incident , indeed I remember the police visiting Casey's the following morning after the fatal incident  in 2014 and they may have visited after the 2018 incident but it wasn't on the day or during closed roads . 

In both cases no other rider was involved , and as I understand it they were declared "racing incidents " and no blame could be attributed to any other rider  so no possible manslaughter charge , no immediate police involvement.

26 minutes ago, Cambon said:

I remember the day well. Bad crash. Fatality. Road would not be opened before midnight. Manx Radio announced that riders would be returning to the grandstand in the opposite direction. 12-15 riders decided that the MR announcement was their instruction to go back. Marshalls at Sulby red flagged them . Most stopped , but a few carried on. The Mercer crash followed.

They are professional racers. They knew that they would be escorted back. The marshalls at the incident were probably extremely shocked by the crash. Marshalls at Sulby tried to stop them. 

The marshal at Sulby Bridge confirmed ( when she marshalled subsequently at my point , as she had on many previous occasions ) that she had flagged riders down. She contacted the powers that be and they advised her that they had no record of her marshalling at Sulby Bridge , she drew their attention to a local newspaper photograph which confirmed her story . She was not called upon to give evidence to the enquiry.

Just saying

11 minutes ago, 0bserver said:

What kind of specialist training do they receive to be able to handle such situations?

I had no 'specialist training 'prior to or after the 2 fatalities I attended but I did not ask anyone for counselling .that said the experience did upset one or two marshals and we spent time together going through the events that evening and later.

I confess I slept badly the night following both incidents , but only one night ,perhaps it may have been worse if the deaths had not been instantaneous ( removed any chance of my first aid skills or lack of them had contributed to the riders death ) ? 

A couple of marshals decided  they would find it difficult to continue marshalling  , however I am still in touch with them and I feel they have come to accept what happened . 

Sorry didn't mean to 'go into one' 

[ManxTaxPayer]

10 hours ago, paswt said:

I had no 'specialist training 'prior to or after the 2 fatalities I attended but I did not ask anyone for counselling .that said the experience did upset one or two marshals and we spent time together going through the events that evening and later.

I confess I slept badly the night following both incidents , but only one night ,perhaps it may have been worse if the deaths had not been instantaneous ( removed any chance of my first aid skills or lack of them had contributed to the riders death ) ? 

A couple of marshals decided  they would find it difficult to continue marshalling  , however I am still in touch with them and I feel they have come to accept what happened . 

Sounds to me like you've all got PTSD. Not surprising really, your experiences sound horrendous.