TT 2022 ??

[paswt]

2 hours ago, ManxTaxPayer said:

Sounds to me like you've all got PTSD. Not surprising really, your experiences sound horrendous. 

I don't think that is the case (for me anyway), witnessing an incident is the last thing any marshal wants to see and perhaps it would be an idea for the organisers to contact the marshals individually and offer counselling  and also discuss any issues arising  from how any incident was dealt with by the team and if any improvements to the course  could be made .

At my point all marshals are/were  asked what  they  were prepared to do in the event of an 'off' , many were understandably reticent to go to the aid of a rider and/or assist the paramedic so , unless we had a St John trained marshal so that was my role.

Over the years we had marshals returning on a regular basis , either for a few or all the sessions so we were (IMO) a "team" ( we didn't always have a DSM)  of friends who relied and trusted each other as opposed to having a DSM instructing the 'foot soldiers'.

Sadly , IMO, the new system issues some instructions to marshals eg any rider on the road should immediately be dragged off onto the verge ( I appreciate that if the rider is just around a blind corner and in a position where they could be  run over that may be appropriate but , bearing in mind that  moving a fallen unconscious rider may result in severe /fatal spinal injuries, there may be a more 'acceptable' courses of action ) .

The priority for me is the safety of myself/ my fellow marshals / the riders , not that the race/ practice should  continue .

[Roger Mexico]

26 minutes ago, paswt said:

Sadly , IMO, the new system issues some instructions to marshals eg any rider on the road should immediately be dragged off onto the verge ( I appreciate that if the rider is just around a blind corner and in a position where they could be  run over that may be appropriate but , bearing in mind that  moving a fallen unconscious rider may result in severe /fatal spinal injuries, there may be a more 'acceptable' courses of action ) .

The priority for me is the safety of myself/ my fellow marshals / the riders , not that the race/ practice should  continue .

That's genuinely shocking.  Anyone who has ever been on even the most rudimentary first aid course knows that you never move such casualties unless immediately necessary to save life.  I can't see how organisations such as St John's could continue to take part if such instructions are issued and individual marshals would probably be judged personally responsible if they followed them and further injury  or death could be claimed.

[0bserver]

18 hours ago, Max Power said:

As you say, you know very little about the organisation, but are willing to slag off those who do based on your prejudices

You mean TT apologists?

[The Phantom]

4 minutes ago, Roger Mexico said:

That's genuinely shocking.  Anyone who has ever been on even the most rudimentary first aid course knows that you never move such casualties unless immediately necessary to save life.  I can't see how organisations such as St John's could continue to take part if such instructions are issued and individual marshals would probably be judged personally responsible if they followed them and further injury  or death could be claimed.

Speaking from first aid experience in hostile/dangerous environments, often the first thing to do is get the patient out of harms way as fast as possible; (although whilst attempting not to put the aid givers in harms way) second is administering the aid.  

It would have to be a personal call made by the Marshalls (and they would have to have a pretty watertight exit from liabilities) but I'd say the majority of the time with TT crashes and unresponsive/immobile patients, it would be ultimately safer to drag them off the course as quick as possible. 

Tricky one.  It's not war.  But it's pretty damned close.  

 

[cissolt]

5 minutes ago, The Phantom said:

Speaking from first aid experience in hostile/dangerous environments, often the first thing to do is get the patient out of harms way as fast as possible; (although whilst attempting not to put the aid givers in harms way) second is administering the aid.  

It would have to be a personal call made by the Marshalls (and they would have to have a pretty watertight exit from liabilities) but I'd say the majority of the time with TT crashes and unresponsive/immobile patients, it would be ultimately safer to drag them off the course as quick as possible. 

Tricky one.  It's not war.  But it's pretty damned close.  

 

The prevailing wisdom is to leave the accident victim where they are.  If this is actual policy, then I agree they need to ensure the marshalls are not held liable for any further injuries sustained when moving the victim.

[The Phantom]

1 minute ago, cissolt said:

The prevailing wisdom is to leave the accident victim where they are.  If this is actual policy, then I agree they need to ensure the marshalls are not held liable for any further injuries sustained when moving the victim.

Yeah on a traditional first aid course, for if someone fall down the stairs and breaks their leg in an office or something, sure.

But laying in the middle of the road behind a blind corner on the TT course? 

What's the first thing you see happen in war films when someone gets shot?  As soon as possible they are taken to cover and then first aid administered.  Care is not given in the middle of a crossfire/directly in the line of contact. 

It's not the perfect analogy, but it is closer than the scenarios you are trained to deal with on a civvy plain vanilla first aid course. 

[0bserver]

10 minutes ago, The Phantom said:

What's the first thing you see happen in war films when someone gets shot?  As soon as possible they are taken to cover and then first aid administered.  Care is not given in the middle of a crossfire/directly in the line of contact. 

Nobody is shooting at TT riders. Let's not pretend the TT is in anyway as serious as an armed conflict. 

[The Phantom]

https://www.icrc.org/en/doc/assets/files/other/icrc_002_0870.pdf

Section 5.2 - Casualty Protection and Removal 

[Ghost Ship]

39 minutes ago, Roger Mexico said:

That's genuinely shocking.  Anyone who has ever been on even the most rudimentary first aid course knows that you never move such casualties unless immediately necessary to save life.  I can't see how organisations such as St John's could continue to take part if such instructions are issued and individual marshals would probably be judged personally responsible if they followed them and further injury  or death could be claimed.

That was my first reaction too.

But if you've got an unconscious rider (and/or one with potential spine/neck injuries) lying on the racing line after a blind corner, what do you do?

Even if the agreed procedure is to stop the race (and I'm not sure it is?) you're unlikely to have time to get the race red flagged before the next riders come through. 

And I wouldn't want to be a marshal in the middle of the road dragging an injured rider to the verge...

It all seems inherently unsafe.

[Roger Mexico]

30 minutes ago, The Phantom said:

Speaking from first aid experience in hostile/dangerous environments, often the first thing to do is get the patient out of harms way as fast as possible; (although whilst attempting not to put the aid givers in harms way) second is administering the aid.  

It would have to be a personal call made by the Marshalls (and they would have to have a pretty watertight exit from liabilities) but I'd say the majority of the time with TT crashes and unresponsive/immobile patients, it would be ultimately safer to drag them off the course as quick as possible. 

Tricky one.  It's not war.  But it's pretty damned close.  

The problem is that, unlike in a war, casualties are more likely to be suffering from the sort of injury (eg spinal) where moving them could make things worse.  (Unless you're using unresponsive as a euphemism for dead).   As Max said there will be some situations where movement is essential, but usually that can be avoided by stopping the threat coming.  Unlike in a war.

[Ghost Ship]

20 minutes ago, The Phantom said:

https://www.icrc.org/en/doc/assets/files/other/icrc_002_0870.pdf

Section 5.2 - Casualty Protection and Removal 

The title of that document sort of says it all though, doesn't it?

"First Aid in armed conflicts and other situations of violence".

I don't think you can necessarily draw a parallel with an organised sports event?

I'm not anti-TT but I think it raises questions if marshals are being advised to do something that would not be advised for first aiders at an "ordinary" motorcycle accident.  It also puts marshals at risk - which might be ok in a war situation but is it at a motor race?

Is there a link to the guidance suggested by paswt or is it not public?

[The Phantom]

30 minutes ago, 0bserver said:

Nobody is shooting at TT riders. Let's not pretend the TT is in anyway as serious as an armed conflict. 

 

17 minutes ago, Roger Mexico said:

The problem is that, unlike in a war, casualties are more likely to be suffering from the sort of injury (eg spinal) where moving them could make things worse.  (Unless you're using unresponsive as a euphemism for dead).   As Max said there will be some situations where movement is essential, but usually that can be avoided by stopping the threat coming.  Unlike in a war.

 

2 minutes ago, Ghost Ship said:

The title of that document sort of says it all though, doesn't it?

"First Aid in armed conflicts and other situations of violence".

I don't think you can necessarily draw a parallel with an organised sports event?

I'm not anti-TT but I think it raises questions if marshals are being advised to do something that would not be advised for first aiders at an "ordinary" motorcycle accident.  It also puts marshals at risk - which might be ok in a war situation but is it at a motor race?

Is there a link to the guidance suggested by paswt or is it not public?

Yeah I agree with all of this.  However, I did also clearly state:

"It's not the perfect analogy, but it is closer than the scenarios you are trained to deal with on a civvy plain vanilla first aid course" and 

"Tricky one.  It's not war.  But it's pretty damned close. "

In the vast majority of cases and scenarios, yes don't move the patient.  But in hostile environments, then it's not so easy a call.  Personally I'd say the middle of the TT course in the middle of a race, would be much closer on the danger scale to a warzone than if someone has fallen down the stairs at work. 

 

 

 

 

[Max Power]

I was always taught, and by St Johns, that the best way to remove people from danger quickly was to support the head and neck and drag them head first. This helps to align the spine and broken limbs.

In all cases on the TT course, the incident is flagged before anyone moves into the road. I know riders have been criticised and reported for not slowing sufficiently but in most cases they are very observant of yellow flags.

Normally a scoop stretcher would be used to roll the casualty onto, they can be safely carried away for treatment. Every situation is different.

[Boris Johnson]

As I have said before the TT is a throwback and still stuck in 1950s attitudes to death and safety.

Re safety.

Drove the mountain road this weekend. please can someone explain how after putting up, at great expense, new sheep/ stock fencing along a couple of miles of the road, the DOI have left in place the old fence, which is broken and full of holes but STILL VERY CAPABLE OF TAKING A RIDERS HEAD OFF if they went through it at the wrong angle.

Seriously this is grade A stupidity to leave a, no longer required, WIRE fence within 1' of a racetrack where bikes will be passing at 180mph +

SMS? (Safety Management System)  = LS (Lip Service) = BS......................

[ManxTaxPayer]

2 minutes ago, Max Power said:

I was always taught, and by St Johns, that the best way to remove people from danger quickly was to support the head and neck and drag them head first. This helps to align the spine and broken limbs.

Fucking Hell. To me, to you.