TT 2022 ??

[Two-lane]

There should be a marshals post that can be seen by the competitors on entry to a corner.

The meaning of a waved yellow flag used to mean something along the lines of  "slow down and be prepared to stop".

 

[wrighty]

2 hours ago, Roger Mexico said:

The problem is that, unlike in a war, casualties are more likely to be suffering from the sort of injury (eg spinal) where moving them could make things worse.  (Unless you're using unresponsive as a euphemism for dead).   As Max said there will be some situations where movement is essential, but usually that can be avoided by stopping the threat coming.  Unlike in a war.

I largely agree with @The Phantom - moving to the side of the road, on balance, is likely safer.  I wouldn't fancy being the one to do it though unless I knew for certain I wasn't about to be mown down by the next bike to come through. (Regarding spinal injuries - it's right that you shouldn't move them, but in almost all circumstances I can possibly imagine, if coming off a bike at 150mph has not caused a catastrophic spinal injury, then being dragged to the side of the road won't do so either)

In formula one cars the drivers have indicators on the dash to warn of upcoming flags.  Could the bikes not have that? Could there not be an automatic power cut to the bikes of approaching riders so they have to slow down? (Too difficult for the TT to incorporate any of these safety features I imagine.  When I suggested a pressure sensor to monitor the presence of the sidecar passenger a few years ago, after yet another sidecar crash when the passenger came off a mile previously, I was told it couldn't happen because these things are built in garages with bits of wood and duct tape, and it'd be impractical)

[0bserver]

4 minutes ago, wrighty said:

When I suggested a pressure sensor to monitor the presence of the sidecar passenger a few years ago, after yet another sidecar crash when the passenger came off a mile previously, I was told it couldn't happen because these things are built in garages with bits of wood and duct tape, and it'd be impractical)

What I was saying about amateur hour... 

All the SMS in the world can't save them.

[doc.fixit]

What do the riders think?

[wrighty]

4 minutes ago, doc.fixit said:

What do the riders think?

They love it, regardless if they die or are paralysed while doing it, which is all that matters 🙄

[The Phantom]

Ultimately there is no right or wrong answer here.

The Marshalls have to make a split second decision that someone’s (or their own) lives might depend upon. 

One live casualty vs one dead casualty vs additional casualties (themselves or other riders) combined with a bucketful of ‘what ifs’.

It will have to be a personal risk assessment made under extreme stress.   Unfortunately covid has demonstrated (or created) a scenario where nowadays many people seem to not be able to make any personal risk assessments anymore and rely on being told exactly what to do.  Some people are more capable of doing this than others. 

If Marshalls feel that they would be unable to make this kind of life or death decision, then maybe they shouldn’t be Marshalls?

The best that we could do is to ensure that there is the appropriate legal protection and limitation from liability associated with such decisions.

Edited May 16, 2022 by The Phantom

[Whiskey]

Even bog standard first aid courses now recommend getting casualties out of harm’s way first. An instructor recently said as @wrighty did, that a severe injury isn’t going to be made worse by pulling them to the side of the road. Is it Dr ABC? Danger first. 

[Two-lane]

If there is a danger of an injured rider being hit, there is a danger that several marshals trying to retrieve him will also be hit.

Here is the text from the FIA sporting regulations - I assume the FIM is similar:

" Double waved: Reduce your speed, do not overtake and be prepared to change direction or stop. There is a hazard wholly or partly blocking the track."

There should be sufficient marshals to provide flag coverage for all the course.

If riders see a waved yellow but do not slow sufficiently to avoid a further accident - no comment (other than if I were marshaling, I would not step out into the road without flag coverage).

[paswt]

2 hours ago, Max Power said:

I was always taught, and by St Johns, that the best way to remove people from danger quickly was to support the head and neck and drag them head first. This helps to align the spine and broken limbs.

In all cases on the TT course, the incident is flagged before anyone moves into the road. I know riders have been criticised and reported for not slowing sufficiently but in most cases they are very observant of yellow flags.

Normally a scoop stretcher would be used to roll the casualty onto, they can be safely carried away for treatment. Every situation is different.

I  attended an IMC in 2009 and a further one in 2012 and in 2015 I was told (in the TTMA office) that as I was not a DSM "it was hardly worth it" ( perhaps my age was a factor😉). The courses I attended did not address the removal of riders .

Where I marshalled (Black Hut) we had line of sight back to Casey's , Casey's Advanced  and beyond which meant that when we had an incident the riders were made aware by many waved yellows and, when we had 3 riders and 3 bikes on the road it was possible to bring the riders to a halt  and request Race Control to red flag the practice. Thus the rider who initially hit the wall could be attended to by a para medic in the road and a first time marshal ( (who luckily for us happened to be St John  trained).    The other two riders were "walking wounded " fortunately.

I take your point about the scoop stretcher Max but if there is evidence of leg or pelvic trauma then I would venture to suggest that the stretcher is split ( which is easier on the road that a grass bank as grass can get caught in the hinges) , saves 'rolling the casualty'. 

I am obliged by posters assurances that dragging a rider off the course etc would not result in further damage but if he/she ended up as a paraplegic  I would be wondering if it may have been as a result of my actions .

I'm not looking for an argument and appreciate others would , in similar circumstances,  make their own decisions .I think, if questioned that , as an ex H&S enforcing Inspector I could  justify taking the action and decisions I did .

It's all a bit academic now as I will not be marshalling as I have no faith in an organisation and the individuals  in charge that take such a cavalier attitude to rider safety as evidenced by refusing to even discuss the installation of air fencing at Casey's where riders died in 2014 and 2018 ( I'm not saying that they would have survived but their chances would have been , IMO, enhanced ).

 

 

 

[HeliX]

3 hours ago, Whiskey said:

Even bog standard first aid courses now recommend getting casualties out of harm’s way first. An instructor recently said as @wrighty did, that a severe injury isn’t going to be made worse by pulling them to the side of the road. Is it Dr ABC? Danger first. 

For serious trauma it'd be (Dr) CABC. You can bleed out of an artery considerably quicker than you die from lack of oxygen.

[HeliX]

4 hours ago, wrighty said:

When I suggested a pressure sensor to monitor the presence of the sidecar passenger a few years ago, after yet another sidecar crash when the passenger came off a mile previously, I was told it couldn't happen because these things are built in garages with bits of wood and duct tape, and it'd be impractical)

Over-engineered. Little mirror in front of the passenger would do it  

[Banky]

3 hours ago, paswt said:

I  attended an IMC in 2009 and a further one in 2012 and in 2015 I was told (in the TTMA office) that as I was not a DSM "it was hardly worth it" ( perhaps my age was a factor😉). The courses I attended did not address the removal of riders .

Where I marshalled (Black Hut) we had line of sight back to Casey's , Casey's Advanced  and beyond which meant that when we had an incident the riders were made aware by many waved yellows and, when we had 3 riders and 3 bikes on the road it was possible to bring the riders to a halt  and request Race Control to red flag the practice. Thus the rider who initially hit the wall could be attended to by a para medic in the road and a first time marshal ( (who luckily for us happened to be St John  trained).    The other two riders were "walking wounded " fortunately.

I take your point about the scoop stretcher Max but if there is evidence of leg or pelvic trauma then I would venture to suggest that the stretcher is split ( which is easier on the road that a grass bank as grass can get caught in the hinges) , saves 'rolling the casualty'. 

I am obliged by posters assurances that dragging a rider off the course etc would not result in further damage but if he/she ended up as a paraplegic  I would be wondering if it may have been as a result of my actions .

I'm not looking for an argument and appreciate others would , in similar circumstances,  make their own decisions .I think, if questioned that , as an ex H&S enforcing Inspector I could  justify taking the action and decisions I did .

It's all a bit academic now as I will not be marshalling as I have no faith in an organisation and the individuals  in charge that take such a cavalier attitude to rider safety as evidenced by refusing to even discuss the installation of air fencing at Casey's where riders died in 2014 and 2018 ( I'm not saying that they would have survived but their chances would have been , IMO, enhanced ).

 

 

 

100%, until the trolls have experienced being on a live course, having to make a split second decision to drag the rider off of the course, before they're hit by the next bike on a blind corner, they'll never know..! 

Edited May 16, 2022 by Banky

[Max Power]

5 hours ago, wrighty said:

When I suggested a pressure sensor to monitor the presence of the sidecar passenger a few years ago, after yet another sidecar crash when the passenger came off a mile previously, I was told it couldn't happen because these things are built in garages with bits of wood and duct tape, and it'd be impractical)

To be fair wrighty, it's attitudes such as that which are not only outdated, they are adding fuel to the unfair argument that the event is stuck in the past. What you suggested wouldn't be difficult to achieve, and of all the classes, the engineering and innovation in sidecar racing from individuals is astounding.

Mind you, @HeliX suggestion of a mirror is much simpler. I've attended several incidents where the passenger had fallen out and the rider had continued for a good distance, unaware they were missing.  

[Non-Believer]

1 hour ago, Max Power said:

Mind you, @HeliX suggestion of a mirror is much simpler. 

Didn't they have just that as a regulation a few years back?

[Max Power]

1 minute ago, Non-Believer said:

Didn't they have just that as a regulation a few years back?

I don't know to be honest, you'd think it would be a sensible thing to have anyway?