0bserver Posted June 7, 2022 Share Posted June 7, 2022 3 minutes ago, cissolt said: You assume that the TT is profitable for the government and therefore has money to spent on health. It's not profitable, the outlay for this TT will eclipse anything that has gone before. The cost of housing the film crews will be massive. They also remove the economic benefit of those hotel rooms... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lost Login Posted June 7, 2022 Share Posted June 7, 2022 8 minutes ago, Happier diner said: Yes there is a difference between personal freedom and the expectation that someone has to provide a platform for you to live that freedom. We host the race and riders are free to enter. If we didn't they would have the freedom to do something else. Therefore in my view, 'personal freedom' has no part in the debate. I totally agree. That is why when Helix says he is favour of the TT on the basis we should not interfere with personal freedoms I have given a few extreme examples where, if we took the principal to the extreme, he would be in favour of people being able to undertake an activity we would all find objectionable. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wrighty Posted June 7, 2022 Share Posted June 7, 2022 2 minutes ago, cissolt said: You assume that the TT is profitable for the government and therefore has money to spent on health. It's not profitable, the outlay for this TT will eclipse anything that has gone before. The 'profit' argument is flawed. It's all about generating economic activity. It provides employment and thus income for some people (with a little tax in return) and generates sales (with a little tax in return). Government will never be able to say they've made x million 'profit', but it can say that GDP has increased by whatever percentage for the two weeks. And this is generally a good thing. 4 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. Sausages Posted June 7, 2022 Share Posted June 7, 2022 5 minutes ago, HeliX said: The Govt actively encourages those taking part in the TT to do so safely (nay, requires it to some extent - required signatures from other road race events, newcomer lap, insurance, safety equipment). Ptetty wide interpretation of “safely” going on here. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lxxx Posted June 7, 2022 Share Posted June 7, 2022 1 minute ago, Lost Login said: If competitors were taking part in the TT safely they would not end up in a morgue or critically ill in hospital Lots of people drive on the roads safely every day yet still end up in hospital or the morgue. As much as there is a drive these days to eliminate all risk from living life itself (Covid saw this snowball out of control) none of us are leaving this world alive. We're all dying one day and if some people want to feel the kind of adrenaline rush while they are here (and I am quite frankly jealous to a certain extent of the bikers that reach a heightened state of consciousness living life so close to the edge) then we should let them continue. For many people the TT is now more about a holiday/festival to meet like minded people from all over the world. The racing, whilst not incidental, isn't the sole reason for attendance. 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HeliX Posted June 7, 2022 Share Posted June 7, 2022 Just now, Lost Login said: I totally agree. That is why when Helix says he is favour of the TT on the basis we should not interfere with personal freedoms I have given a few extreme examples where, if we took the principal to the extreme, he would be in favour of people being able to undertake an activity we would all find objectionable. Except I wouldn't be in favour, because you took it to a non-comparative extreme. Engaging willingly in dangerous motorsport is not comparable to wanking at children. It's astounding that you believe they can be made part of the same train of thought. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HeliX Posted June 7, 2022 Share Posted June 7, 2022 Just now, Mr. Sausages said: Ptetty wide interpretation of “safely” going on here. You can engage in dangerous activities safely and unsafely. But I'm not sure another semantics argument is adding much value. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andy Onchan Posted June 7, 2022 Share Posted June 7, 2022 11 minutes ago, Lost Login said: So men should be allowed to masturbate in public in front of women and children? I don't believe they should but preventing them means you are interfering with living their lives "how they want to, without interference from those who don't like it". Oh I say, steady on that man! 1 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lost Login Posted June 7, 2022 Share Posted June 7, 2022 2 minutes ago, HeliX said: Did you think this was a sensible argument and valid comparison when you typed it? Yes. You state that you are not in favour of restricting people's personal freedoms and that stopping the TT would be doing that. I was pointing out how facile your argument is as if you are not in favour of restricting people's personal freedoms then logically you would be in favour of people being able to do whatever they want in public. I presume you are not and that like virtually all the population you are in favour, to some extent, of restricting people's personal freedom. You seem to ant to have your cake and eat it. i.e. say it would be wrong to stop the TT as that would be restricting people's personal freedom but then happy to restrict their freedoms in respect of other activities. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HeliX Posted June 7, 2022 Share Posted June 7, 2022 Just now, Lost Login said: Yes. You state that you are not in favour of restricting people's personal freedoms and that stopping the TT would be doing that. I was pointing out how facile your argument is as if you are not in favour of restricting people's personal freedoms then logically you would be in favour of people being able to do whatever they want in public. I presume you are not and that like virtually all the population you are in favour, to some extent, of restricting people's personal freedom. You seem to ant to have your cake and eat it. i.e. say it would be wrong to stop the TT as that would be restricting people's personal freedom but then happy to restrict their freedoms in respect of other activities. No, you were making a reductio ad absurdum. It is plainly clear that the context was events where everyone participating is doing so consensually, without pressure, without much financial reward. It is plain for everyone else to see that. There are many valid counter arguments you could make so it is surprising you have chosen a ridiculous one. I even said previously when replying to your slightly less extreme version of this that I wasn't talking about things where other people who haven't made the choice to be involved come to harm, but you have ignored that to make an incredibly stupid argument. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lost Login Posted June 7, 2022 Share Posted June 7, 2022 11 minutes ago, wrighty said: The 'profit' argument is flawed. It's all about generating economic activity. It provides employment and thus income for some people (with a little tax in return) and generates sales (with a little tax in return). Government will never be able to say they've made x million 'profit', but it can say that GDP has increased by whatever percentage for the two weeks. And this is generally a good thing. What GDP is lost by other businesses over the same period. We have a public holiday because of the TT which many businesses close for. That must negatively affect GDP. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. Sausages Posted June 7, 2022 Share Posted June 7, 2022 (edited) “You can engage in dangerous activities safely and unsafely. But I'm not sure another semantics argument is adding much value.” Quite funny watching you tie yourself in knots with words though Edited June 7, 2022 by Mr. Sausages 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lost Login Posted June 7, 2022 Share Posted June 7, 2022 1 minute ago, HeliX said: No, you were making a reductio ad absurdum. It is plainly clear that the context was events where everyone participating is doing so consensually, without pressure, without much financial reward. It is plain for everyone else to see that. There are many valid counter arguments you could make so it is surprising you have chosen a ridiculous one. I even said previously when replying to your slightly less extreme version of this that I wasn't talking about things where other people who haven't made the choice to be involved come to harm, but you have ignored that to make an incredibly stupid argument. I am involved in the TT, as for the period it affects my daily life, and I do not participate consensually. You seem to be suggesting that it is only the actual competitors who are involved. This is as absurd as me suggesting that it would only be the man masturbating in public who would be affected by his actions and not those witnessing. My argument you may view as ridiculous but it is the logical extension of your argument that the TT should not be cancelled because that would be interfering with individual's freedom of choice. My view is that if those who want to partake can do so without affecting anybody else then fine, just like the man should be able to do what he wants in the privacy of his own home. But the TT is not something that is purely arranged and involves the riders. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HeliX Posted June 7, 2022 Share Posted June 7, 2022 Just now, Lost Login said: I am involved in the TT, as for the period it affects my daily life, and I do not participate consensually. You seem to be suggesting that it is only the actual competitors who are involved. This is as absurd as me suggesting that it would only be the man masturbating in public who would be affected by his actions and not those witnessing. My argument you may view as ridiculous but it is the logical extension of your argument that the TT should not be cancelled because that would be interfering with individual's freedom of choice. My view is that if those who want to partake can do so without affecting anybody else then fine, just like the man should be able to do what he wants in the privacy of his own home. But the TT is not something that is purely arranged and involves the riders. You are still making arguments to the absurd. Everything that goes on around you has some impact on your life. Again, very clearly, the impact we're discussing re: the TT is injuries/death. You made a good argument about this in terms of hospital appointments. Not sure why you're now trying to make a rubbish one instead. "it is the logical extension of your argument that the TT should not be cancelled because that would be interfering with individual's freedom of choice" It's ridiculous because you've simplified my argument, based on a glib comment I made about being "woke", and continue to use that as the canon version of my argument instead of listening when I clarify. Presumably because that makes it easier to construct bad arguments against it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AOR Posted June 7, 2022 Share Posted June 7, 2022 19 minutes ago, wrighty said: The 'profit' argument is flawed. It's all about generating economic activity. It provides employment and thus income for some people (with a little tax in return) and generates sales (with a little tax in return). Government will never be able to say they've made x million 'profit', but it can say that GDP has increased by whatever percentage for the two weeks. And this is generally a good thing. There's no need to quantify it ie: a "little" tax in return. Your stance on the TT is clear enough. It's more about getting money into the economy. So without wanting to sound patronising, for example a Homestay takes a £1000 and pays actually zero tax. But whatever they purchase with that money, the selling business will pay tax on that income, and whatever the business then purchases will pay tax, and so on. The direct tax raised during TT is probably quite quantifiable with such as VAT returns etc but that figure is only part of the picture. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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