Hooly Posted November 29, 2021 Share Posted November 29, 2021 1 hour ago, Boris Johnson said: Or increasing the engine size for sidecars to chase the 120mph lap? The sidecar class is expected to feature new machinery in 2022 as, for the first time, teams will be permitted to use 900cc parallel twin-cylinder engines. It means the biggest shakeup in the class for three decades with the newly eligible powerplants running alongside the 600cc four-cylinder and 675cc three-cylinder outfits that have long been the mainstay of sidecar racing at the TT. Might we therefore see the Birchall brothers powered around the TT Mountain Course by a new powerplant? Already edging closer to the magical 120mph lap for sidecars, Ben is likely to play a waiting game: WTAF is wrong with this island?How is making the TT even faster making it safer? Just because the number is bigger doesn't mean its faster - that shows your ignorance to the subject. Parallel twins and straight 4's deliver their power in a completely different way. 2 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joebean Posted November 29, 2021 Share Posted November 29, 2021 I have read the SMS article on the iomtt website. It is detail free and intention rich and we are being asked to put a lot of faith in Nige and Gareth's previous experience; but it is relevant. The TT, if it is to survive, needs to evolve as the rest of the world is evolving; it cannot exist in conflict with the attitudes and expectations around risk that are held by the public, government, sponsors, insurers and competitors, to name a few. The key will be to properly assess the risks by looking carefully at all the factors that contribute to it and to balance actions resulting from this assessment with the needs of the event as a spectacle and competitive sport. As they say, it is not a one-off piece of work but a continuing process. I suspect the real conflict will be with the existing TT fans who want everything to stay the way they currently like it. However, these people are not in the majority and, even if they were, they are not the future of the event. My only concern is where the future fan is going to come from. The days of reacting to a fatal incident by publishing a tribute to the fallen and excuse organisational involvement or complicity by suggesting that they died doing the thing they loved is tired, dishonest and past its time. Proper, reasoned and evidence-based risk management has to be the way forward. I wish these guys luck. 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Annoymouse Posted November 29, 2021 Share Posted November 29, 2021 38 minutes ago, Hooly said: Just because the number is bigger doesn't mean its faster - that shows your ignorance to the subject. Parallel twins and straight 4's deliver their power in a completely different way. But why would anyone choose a twin though? They don’t need the additional engine braking as they spend most of their time flat out, I’ve never seen a twin rev as high as a 4 or 3 cylinder motor either... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HeliX Posted November 29, 2021 Share Posted November 29, 2021 26 minutes ago, Annoymouse said: But why would anyone choose a twin though? They don’t need the additional engine braking as they spend most of their time flat out, I’ve never seen a twin rev as high as a 4 or 3 cylinder motor either... 959cc Ducati Panagle V2 engine... "With a maximum power of 155 hp at 10,750 rpm and a torque of 104 Nm at 9,000 rpm" 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
doc.fixit Posted November 29, 2021 Share Posted November 29, 2021 Are the sidecars parallel twins though? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Annoymouse Posted November 29, 2021 Share Posted November 29, 2021 7 minutes ago, HeliX said: 959cc Ducati Panagle V2 engine... "With a maximum power of 155 hp at 10,750 rpm and a torque of 104 Nm at 9,000 rpm" That still doesn’t rev as high as a typical 3 or 4 cylinder motor, what was your point? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HeliX Posted November 29, 2021 Share Posted November 29, 2021 8 minutes ago, Annoymouse said: That still doesn’t rev as high as a typical 3 or 4 cylinder motor, what was your point? It doesn't matter how high it revs. It makes the power at lower RPM. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
finlo Posted November 29, 2021 Share Posted November 29, 2021 37 minutes ago, doc.fixit said: Are the sidecars parallel twins though? Showing my age now but last time I looked they were using Hillman Imp engines! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Non-Believer Posted November 29, 2021 Share Posted November 29, 2021 (edited) It matters not where the power is produced within the rev range, a lower revving, bigger capacity and torquier engine will pull higher gearing to match the speed differential. Once the characteristics are mastered there will be little or no difference. Don't make the error of comparing the modern twins to old Triumphs, Norton or BSAs either; they are a galaxy apart. Look at (as has been posted above) the V twin Ducatis which were easily competitive with the Japanese 4 cylinders in WSB. The TT has never been about reducing speed, just maintaining or increasing it. If a certain type of engine is no longer available then a replacement needs to be found. Oddly enough, the only time I can recall a conscious attempt at speed reduction was in 1990 when the solos were limited to 750cc following fatalities and sidecars moved to the current F2 spec because their 750/1000 predecessors had become what was considered to be too fast and too lightly constructed for TT duty (again following fatalities), plus their favoured 750 Yamaha two strokes were at the end of their line too. A new engine class was therefore needed (sound familiar?). At that point their lap record was 108mph. The early 600s were lucky to make 100mph average. 30 years of development has seen that pushed to over 119mph. This new spec has nothing to do with reducing speed, just accommodating the demise of the 600cc motor production. Edited November 29, 2021 by Non-Believer extra bit 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ramseyboi Posted November 30, 2021 Share Posted November 30, 2021 6 hours ago, Non-Believer said: This new spec has nothing to do with reducing speed, just accommodating the demise of the 600cc motor production. Correct. Nothing more sinister than that. You can barely buy a new 600 these days so it doesn’t take a genius to work it out. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SleepyJoe Posted November 30, 2021 Share Posted November 30, 2021 Any industry talk on new engine development? I see today that India is directing its motor industry to use bio-ethanol only by 2030 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Flint Posted November 30, 2021 Share Posted November 30, 2021 20 hours ago, James Blonde said: Is this what's been forced on them following the Mercer injury? While all very impressive it sounds very, very... expensive! Acquisitaion of a new, state-of-the-art, medical centre to be located on-site I suspect the insurers will have had a massive influence on this, but to have an expert in aviation safety and a world authority in pre-hospital Care lead this is a once in a generation opportunity. And them both being Manx has ensured they have been listened to. Many others have banged on about these issues and never been listened to. They just need to sort out safety on the open roads now, and we’ve cracked it. https://www.iomttraces.com/latest/features/better-safe-than-sorry/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
James Blonde Posted November 30, 2021 Share Posted November 30, 2021 14 minutes ago, Derek Flint said: I suspect the insurers will have had a massive influence on this, but to have an expert in aviation safety and a world authority in pre-hospital Care lead this is a once in a generation opportunity. And them both being Manx has ensured they have been listened to. Many others have banged on about these issues and never been listened to. They just need to sort out safety on the open roads now, and we’ve cracked it. https://www.iomttraces.com/latest/features/better-safe-than-sorry/ I hope you're right! Will this mean no more sticking bodies under a tarp, dusting sand on the road and cracking on with the racing? I won't believe it until I see it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Max Power Posted November 30, 2021 Share Posted November 30, 2021 55 minutes ago, James Blonde said: I hope you're right! Will this mean no more sticking bodies under a tarp, dusting sand on the road and cracking on with the racing? I won't believe it until I see it. It's a bit late for safety once that's happened. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
James Blonde Posted November 30, 2021 Share Posted November 30, 2021 (edited) 12 minutes ago, Max Power said: It's a bit late for safety once that's happened. Not really. The blurb in the article talks about learning from each 'accident', that can only be done with proper analysis as is done by the police on the public highway. If that were to manifest in real life it would mean no more chucking bodies under tarps in people's front gardens. Edited November 30, 2021 by James Blonde 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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