TT 2022 ??

[Gladys]

8 minutes ago, John Wright said:

The primary purpose is who, when, where, how. 

It’s not to apportion blame or to give rise to civil or criminal liability, so the how is limited. 

In this case the coroner has had one death, but two identities  reported. Why needs resolving.

I understand that, my point was to Kopek that identification, and so the misidentification, is an issue for the Coroner. She can't inquire into the death of a person still alive, surely?

The 'why' of the misidentification does indeed need resolving. 

 

[Kopek]

My point was, Gladys, that the identities were not of prime importance in the immediate aftermath of the accident. Witnesses would not have given statements naming a person. Any statement later attributed to one or other of the riders could be switched to the other name when the mistake became known?

I can't see why the Coroner would request silence no matter who was responsible. It had happened and was known.

Of course the identities were of paramount importance to the relatives.

[Newbie]

35 minutes ago, Roger Mexico said:

Which of course isn't what happened.  The family released the tweet about their son's death, possibly because they had got to Aintree and realised that the injured patient wasn't their son.  The tweet got picked up by the media who all assumed that, because they had been told the Aintree patient was Chanal, that he had died as well.  Only later in the morning did organisers release their statement.  Clearly they were unaware of the identity mix-up till after the tweet. 

If the organisers had been in touch with the family at all they would have known before that and released information earlier.

Normally your posts are well thought out Roger, but this time you are speculating. It is the organisers who realised that there had been a misidentification and they along with Walton hospital (not Aintree) who informed the respective families 

[Ghost Ship]

1 hour ago, John Wright said:

...The Coroners enquiry is, initially,  identity, where, when and cause of death...

...So the circumstances as to how there has been a misidentification is obviously in the purview of both, but with primacy to the Coroner.

 

42 minutes ago, John Wright said:

... In this case the coroner has had one death, but two identities  reported. Why needs resolving.

 

29 minutes ago, Gladys said:

I understand that, my point was to Kopek that identification, and so the misidentification, is an issue for the Coroner. She can't inquire into the death of a person still alive, surely?

The 'why' of the misidentification does indeed need resolving. 

 

I don't have a problem with the coroner's investigation formally recording the identity of the deceased.

What I think I'm struggling to understand is why - with the identity of the deceased now being certain - the coroner's investigation would be the only or the most appropriate arena in which to establish why or how the misidentification happened post-mortem.  (I'm assuming the mistake was made post-mortem, but maybe it wasn't.  If it wasn't, then I can understand why the coroner needs to investigate it.)

I agree the "why" of the misidentification needs to be resolved, but if it happened post-mortem I don't see why the "who" that establishes it has to be the coroner - or why the coroner needs to say "don't speculate about it".  Once it was revealed that the wrong name had been announced, nothing was going to stop speculation about how it occurred.

And any speculation was unlikely to be as distressing to the family of either the deceased or the survivor as the original mistaken announcement.

 

[Ghost Ship]

21 minutes ago, Kopek said:

... I can't see why the Coroner would request silence no matter who was responsible. It had happened and was known...

I think I agree.  The fact that people are requested not to discuss it when it was known that it had happened and had quite a high profile looks odd.

(Of course it might not look odd any where other than the Isle of Man - where a lot of stuff apparently gets swept under the carpet or otherwise not talked about... )

[Ghost Ship]

I think it's a bit ironic in a case of misidentification like this that there seems to be no consensus even as to which hospital the survivor is in.

[0bserver]

11 minutes ago, Roxanne said:

I have a story about this case. It’s not one that shows the island or the organisers in a good light.

Friends of the French guys were summoned to the tower at the grandstand after the incident, apparently to shed some light on who was who. They spoke very little English and were distressed. The Medic in charge (who spoke no French) berated and shouted at them over the ‘tag’ mix up. They had no idea why he was so angry and they had no clue about the dog tags. My friends, who had taken them there were absolutely disgusted by the treatment they received. On top of hearing that their friends had crashed and that one was dead they received an absolute barrage of abuse from the medic in the tower. My friends removed them asap - but truly - it wasn’t good. 

I'm so very sorry to hear this. That's a truly awful experience for family and friends during an unimaginably sad time. 

[Newbie]

2 hours ago, Roxanne said:

 

Post removed

Edited June 15, 2022 by Newbie

[Markduc]

7 minutes ago, Newbie said:

It is also completely untrue. Apart from anything else, the misidentification was not even known about at that time. The identities as established shortly after the incident were believed to be correct so why would the medic in the tower berate the families about something that he didn’t even know about?

Never let facts get in the way of a story 

 

[kevster]

2 minutes ago, Markduc said:

Never let facts get in the way of a story 

 

It's the Manxforums way

[Roger Mexico]

24 minutes ago, Newbie said:

Normally your posts are well thought out Roger, but this time you are speculating. It is the organisers who realised that there had been a misidentification and they along with Walton hospital (not Aintree) who informed the respective families 

Well the injured competitor was first identified as being flown to Aintree and the organisers don't seem to have updated Manx Radio as to his location when they reported his condition yesterday.  Of course a transfer to Walton would be entirely possible, especially as seems sadly likely there are head injuries, but it hasn't been made public.

As for the organisers contacting the families about the mistake, that's not what the Lavorel family say:

Lors de l’annonce du décès, les organisateurs ont interverti les deux participants.
« Nous avons été contactés lundi pour aller à l’hôpital de Liverpool identifier notre fils, explique Denis Lavorel, le père. Le frère d’Olivier a donc fait le déplacement mais en arrivant sur place, il s’est aperçu que le corps n’était pas le bon. » La raison, selon Denis Lavorel : le fait que les deux concurrents ne portaient pas leur “pass” permettant de les identifier au moment du choc. « C’est une erreur qui pouvait arriver, un quiproquo regrettable », considère le Haut-Savoyard. Et de souhaiter, tout de même, que l’information circule car depuis quatre jours, la famille reçoit « beaucoup de coups de téléphone et de lettres de condoléances » alors qu’Olivier Lavorel lutte toujours pour sa survie.

via Google translate:

When the death was announced, the organizers switched the two participants.
“We were contacted on Monday to go to Liverpool hospital to identify our son, explains Denis Lavorel, the father. Olivier's brother therefore made the trip but when he arrived there, he realized that the body was not the right one. The reason, according to Denis Lavorel: the fact that the two competitors were not wearing their “pass” allowing them to be identified at the time of the shock. "It's a mistake that could happen, a regrettable misunderstanding", considers the Haut-Savoyard. And to wish, all the same, that the information circulates because for the past four days, the family has received "many phone calls and letters of condolence" while Olivier Lavorel is still fighting for his survival.

If the men weren't wearing any tags at all, that makes the mistake even worse as they physically quite different with photos showing Chanal a good deal taller with long hair (in a bun). So you would think some other method of identification would have been attempted rather than just (it seems) guessing.

We see this mishandling of information happening all the time.  A refusal to tell people what the actual truth is because of unspecified or dubious reasons, while at the same time all sorts of insinuations are being made that somehow it's all the fault of other people and the authorities are completely blameless for all their actions and decisions. 

Anyone who challenges this way of doing this is loftily dismissed as not knowing the true story, which apparently should only be available to the right people.  But all that's really happening is mistakes being covered up by people who lack the integrity to ever admit they were wrong or the intelligence or desire to learn from their mistakes.

[Markduc]

The baying gossip mongers on social media probably drive the rush to put out information 

the organizers would of been criticized if they had kept details to themselves, 

dammed if they do dammed if they don’t 

[HeliX]

12 minutes ago, Roger Mexico said:

If the men weren't wearing any tags at all, that makes the mistake even worse as they physically quite different with photos showing Chanal a good deal taller with long hair (in a bun).

Large fire...

[Roger Mexico]

1 minute ago, HeliX said:

Large fire...

I'm trying not to discuss the horrific details, but if Lavorel survived you would expect him to be identifiable by the differences.

I hadn't seen Roxanne's story when I wrote my comment, but if it is true it shows just how unprepared the organisers were at dealing with such incidents and how poor at dealing with the bereaved.

[HeliX]

8 minutes ago, Roger Mexico said:

I'm trying not to discuss the horrific details, but if Lavorel survived you would expect him to be identifiable by the differences.

I hadn't seen Roxanne's story when I wrote my comment, but if it is true it shows just how unprepared the organisers were at dealing with such incidents and how poor at dealing with the bereaved.

One of many reasons the story sounds somewhat dubious. The IOMTT is exactly the sort of place you'd expect to have medics equipped to deal with both those things. Certainly any that I've interacted with I would be surprised to see acting in the way described. Very concerning if true, mind.