TT 2022 ??

[manxman1980]

I am sure John could express a view but I don't believe there is a big conspiracy here.

There are ongoing investigations to establish the cause of the fatalities and whilst they will be by different bodies who are concerned by different aspects there is one major reason for keeping details quiet.

If there were to be a criminal prosecution as a result then having information in the public domain could cause issues and challenges that there was not a fair trial.

I am not familiar enough with the legislation to know whether or not such a case could be brought under Manx law and against race organisers but it would explain why things are not being made public.

[HeliX]

2 minutes ago, Roxanne said:

Have you ever seen any of them in the middle of a potential shit storm with their name written all over it? If not, then perhaps you are not qualified to answer. I tell you. My bloody eyes have been opened to what goes on. 

Probably not the ones on duty on that day, but various medics in the past yes.

I'm not suggesting you're lying, just that the story may have been slightly distorted through the few retellings it took to get to the Forum. The medics won't have known there was a mistake to be angry about at the time...

[Declan]

I'm not sure that Roxanne has said when the conversation happened, but it could have been - 

• on the day of the crash before any identification had taken place.
• a few days later when the mix-up was suspected but not established

Either would allow both Newbie and Roxanne's posts to be true.  

 

 

[Roger Mexico]

4 minutes ago, HeliX said:

The medics won't have known there was a mistake to be angry about at the time...

They would have done if there were no tags at all (as according to the family), rather than the rather implausible story about them 'having swapped tags for luck' (how would it be known?) which seems to be the one currently promulgated.  But no tags would make people ask how tightly regulations had been enforced and why no alternative forms of identification were tried.

I'm slightly more dubious about whether the angry person the French guys were harangued by was actually a 'medic', though clearly that's what they understood them to be.  But it was someone in the organisation and the failure to get a translator and sort things out is culpable.

[Newbie]

1 hour ago, Roger Mexico said:

Well the injured competitor was first identified as being flown to Aintree and the organisers don't seem to have updated Manx Radio as to his location when they reported his condition yesterday.  Of course a transfer to Walton would be entirely possible, especially as seems sadly likely there are head injuries, but it hasn't been made public.

As for the organisers contacting the families about the mistake, that's not what the Lavorel family say:

Lors de l’annonce du décès, les organisateurs ont interverti les deux participants.
« Nous avons été contactés lundi pour aller à l’hôpital de Liverpool identifier notre fils, explique Denis Lavorel, le père. Le frère d’Olivier a donc fait le déplacement mais en arrivant sur place, il s’est aperçu que le corps n’était pas le bon. » La raison, selon Denis Lavorel : le fait que les deux concurrents ne portaient pas leur “pass” permettant de les identifier au moment du choc. « C’est une erreur qui pouvait arriver, un quiproquo regrettable », considère le Haut-Savoyard. Et de souhaiter, tout de même, que l’information circule car depuis quatre jours, la famille reçoit « beaucoup de coups de téléphone et de lettres de condoléances » alors qu’Olivier Lavorel lutte toujours pour sa survie.

via Google translate:

When the death was announced, the organizers switched the two participants.
“We were contacted on Monday to go to Liverpool hospital to identify our son, explains Denis Lavorel, the father. Olivier's brother therefore made the trip but when he arrived there, he realized that the body was not the right one. The reason, according to Denis Lavorel: the fact that the two competitors were not wearing their “pass” allowing them to be identified at the time of the shock. "It's a mistake that could happen, a regrettable misunderstanding", considers the Haut-Savoyard. And to wish, all the same, that the information circulates because for the past four days, the family has received "many phone calls and letters of condolence" while Olivier Lavorel is still fighting for his survival.

If the men weren't wearing any tags at all, that makes the mistake even worse as they physically quite different with photos showing Chanal a good deal taller with long hair (in a bun). So you would think some other method of identification would have been attempted rather than just (it seems) guessing.

We see this mishandling of information happening all the time.  A refusal to tell people what the actual truth is because of unspecified or dubious reasons, while at the same time all sorts of insinuations are being made that somehow it's all the fault of other people and the authorities are completely blameless for all their actions and decisions. 

Anyone who challenges this way of doing this is loftily dismissed as not knowing the true story, which apparently should only be available to the right people.  But all that's really happening is mistakes being covered up by people who lack the integrity to ever admit they were wrong or the intelligence or desire to learn from their mistakes.

I hadn't seen that report Roger, so thanks for posting the link to it. All I can say is that it is mis-reported, and I would not want to speculate on how that might have happened.

An obvious question is why would the body of a deceased competitor, someone that was the subject of a Coroner's Inquiry here on the Isle of Man, be transported to Liverpool whilst the Coroner's investigations were ongoing? The answer is that it wouldn't and it wasn't.

[Banker]

Well we had most arrests!!

https://www.manxradio.com/news/isle-of-man-news/locals-top-arrest-tally-over-tt-fortnight/

[Whiskey]

3 minutes ago, Banker said:

Well we had most arrests!!

https://www.manxradio.com/news/isle-of-man-news/locals-top-arrest-tally-over-tt-fortnight/

Cool, what do we win? 

[manxman1980]

2 hours ago, Roger Mexico said:

They would have done if there were no tags at all (as according to the family)

Are you relying on the Google translation for this statement?

Google translate is okay but it seems to translate individual words rather than the full sentence.  We might think that is okay but in languages like French the structure of the sentence can alter the meaning.

[Roger Mexico]

1 minute ago, manxman1980 said:

Are you relying on the Google translation for this statement?

Google translate is okay but it seems to translate individual words rather than the full sentence.  We might think that is okay but in languages like French the structure of the sentence can alter the meaning.

Well yes, that's why I said that the translation was via Google translate and gave the original French.  I await any corrections from fluent or native speakers.  In my experience newspaper articles usually translate fairly well as they have simple structures, but there may be nuances missing.  But you can't decide to disregard it on general grounds without suggesting improvements.

[manxman1980]

@Roger Mexico

I am not disregarding anything.  Simply suggesting caution when using Google translate.

Having worked for a French business I know just how terrible the translations can be.  Unfortunately my French is still poor.

[John Wright]

Re Aintree/Walton they are next to each other on Lower Lane. In fact I think it’s fair to say that the Walton Centre is built on part of the Aintree University Hospital Estate. Any emergency helicopter evacuation would land on the playing fields next to the. Aintree hospital end. Walton has nowhere to land.

I know when Paul was in Walton the family overnight accommodation was in Aintree.

[Max Power]

4 hours ago, Kopek said:

I can't see why the Coroner would request silence no matter who was responsible. It had happened and was known.

She did though, for her own reasons, which casts everyone in a bad light. The actual reason for the misidentification has been touched on here.

The only way that people, such as medics, who don't know the competitors involved, would be able to identify the competitors involved would be by the identity discs which they were wearing. The organisers can't interfere in emergency medical treatment so wouldn't be aware of what was going on. I'm guessing the surviving competitor was rushed across to Aintree before his friends could get to see him?  

[Annoymouse]

So when are we likely to see this Coroners report? 

[Max Power]

7 minutes ago, Annoymouse said:

So when are we likely to see this Coroners report? 

The trouble is that many of these inquests are up to a year afterwards recently. 

[John Wright]

5 minutes ago, Annoymouse said:

So when are we likely to see this Coroners report? 

You won’t. Because a report isn’t being prepared. The Coroner’s Officer will be gathering evidence to present to a sitting of the Coroners Court.

Its normally divided into two hearings.

1. who, when, where, how. That’s formal. The how is medical cause of death.  That allows release of body for burial and issue of temporary death certificate.

2. in cases such as this an enquiry, in public, with witnesses, in front of a jury. At the end of which a verdict will be brought in and the coroner may give a narrative verdict.

1. will happen fairly soon. 2. Will wait until the other enquiries are completed, or, at least rely in part on their evidence.