TT 2022 ??

[0bserver]

17 minutes ago, Gladys said:

They could could well do, John.  There is also the benevolent fund which,  if it doesn't help with the immediate expenses, perhaps should be beefed up.  I  not sure that a 500k payout from (not sure who) would alleviate that initial and immediate need. 

£500k from the IOMG/GMP. Call it a form of moral offsetting. 

It's the least we should be doing. 

[Gladys]

18 minutes ago, TheTeapot said:

Seeing as insurance is basically gambling and the odds of death or life changing injury must be very high, I'm struggling to see why any company would offer any kind of insurance. 

Overly simplified example - say they pay out £1m for death or long term hospitalisation. That's £8m this year. Out of 100 competitors? Each competitor would have to pay a minimum premium of £80000 for the company to break even. 

If I were running an insurance company I would not be offering insurance to racers.

Insurance is a numbers game, or more accurately, an actuarial game.  It depends on how large the pool (number of insured people and events) is to spread the risk.

Insurance companies' business is accepting risk and there are specialist providers, including Lloyd's and the reinsurance market.

But, I get your point.

 

 

[Gladys]

7 minutes ago, 0bserver said:

£500k from the IOMG/GMP. Call it a form of moral offsetting. 

It's the least we should be doing. 

Competing is not obligatory and the organisers should have funds available to deal with the immediate financial impact for families.  Perhaps IOMG could contribute to that fund. 

IOMG/GMP already contribute quite a lot to facilitating the event (there are differing views as to the L.S.D. benefit for IOM Plc).  It is a different argument as to whether the event should go ahead in the first place that is not answered, IMHO, by IOMG/GMP paying out substantial sums in the event of a death or life changing injury.  

[Happier diner]

1 hour ago, John Wright said:

Don’t the organisers provide limited life and injury insurance. But these things take time to claim, pay out. And it may not cover things like family travel, loss of earnings, etc.

It is a pre condition of competing that you have racing insurance. It is up to the individual to get it. It not as expensive as you might imagine (for IOM residents) but relies on the assumption that emergency care will be provided by the state, so its more about long term support, loss of earnings etc. Its not comprehensive (i.e. don't expect BUPA).

I'm not sure how the international riders organise themselves. I'm not sure what happens say, if you are French and have to be air lifted to a UK hospital. I imagine you would need insurance to cover all of this which would be very expensive.

[Derek Flint]

10 hours ago, Non-Believer said:

 

I personally think that deaths in the event have tacit Govt acceptance, it was always so. Maybe two a year and it can be played down and ridden out, collateral for the economic benefits. More than that and the shit now hits the fan, especially with there being so many and so long since such. There's much less public acceptance of multiple deaths these days, we haven't had a World War recently to harden society to it.

 

The thing is I don’t believe Government can operate like that. The state has a positive obligation to protect life, which will always trump the upholding of personal freedoms.

[Gladys]

7 minutes ago, Derek Flint said:

The thing is I don’t believe Government can operate like that. The state has a positive obligation to protect life, which will always trump the upholding of personal freedoms.

Can you evidence that statement?  If that really is true, sky diving would be banned, sea swimming would be outlawed,  trapeze artistry would be an illegal occupation, alcohol licences wouldn't be given (the state not only ignoring alcohol consumption but giving permission for profiting from it)  suicide would still be a crime and so on. 

What is a positive obligation, how does it differ from a negative obligation?

[Declan]

1 hour ago, TheTeapot said:

Seeing as insurance is basically gambling and the odds of death or life changing injury must be very high, I'm struggling to see why any company would offer any kind of insurance. 

Overly simplified example - say they pay out £1m for death or long term hospitalisation. That's £8m this year. Out of 100 competitors? Each competitor would have to pay a minimum premium of £80000 for the company to break even. 

If I were running an insurance company I would not be offering insurance to racers.

I doubt the payouts are anywhere near a £m to competitors, maybe for third parties but not for injured competitors. 

[Roger Mexico]

1 hour ago, Declan said:

I doubt the payouts are anywhere near a £m to competitors, maybe for third parties but not for injured competitors. 

Third party appears to be covered by the organisers:

The Organisers undertake to provide insurance for each rider, indemnifying him/her against any third party claims made arising out of the races or official qualifying, excluding claims by other riders, entrants, sponsors or mechanics

Though whether the amounts are large enough or payouts speedy enough you can judge by various ongoing court cases.

If you follow the above link, it gives the relevant section of the regulations.  It seems to suggest that for ACU/SACU licence holders:

Thee Organisers will arrange Personal Accident cover for the following benefits:
4.7.1. £10,000 GBP Death or permanent total disablement
4.7.2. £20,000 GBP Loss of or loss of the use of, one or more limbs or eye

while others need to be: insured against the risk of Personal Accident in accordance
with the FIM Sporting Code but with additional cover for Medical Treatment and Repatriation costs, as follows:
- EUR 25,000 Death
- EUR 50,000 Temporary Partial Disablement
- EUR 185,000 Medical Treatment
- EUR 75,000 Repatriation Costs

So in either case the death payment isn't much.

[AOR]

2 hours ago, Derek Flint said:

The thing is I don’t believe Government can operate like that. The state has a positive obligation to protect life, which will always trump the upholding of personal freedoms.

wtf?

[0bserver]

11 minutes ago, Roger Mexico said:

Third party appears to be covered by the organisers:

The Organisers undertake to provide insurance for each rider, indemnifying him/her against any third party claims made arising out of the races or official qualifying, excluding claims by other riders, entrants, sponsors or mechanics

Though whether the amounts are large enough or payouts speedy enough you can judge by various ongoing court cases.

If you follow the above link, it gives the relevant section of the regulations.  It seems to suggest that for ACU/SACU licence holders:

Thee Organisers will arrange Personal Accident cover for the following benefits:
4.7.1. £10,000 GBP Death or permanent total disablement
4.7.2. £20,000 GBP Loss of or loss of the use of, one or more limbs or eye

while others need to be: insured against the risk of Personal Accident in accordance
with the FIM Sporting Code but with additional cover for Medical Treatment and Repatriation costs, as follows:
- EUR 25,000 Death
- EUR 50,000 Temporary Partial Disablement
- EUR 185,000 Medical Treatment
- EUR 75,000 Repatriation Costs

So in either case the death payment isn't much.

There's been mention before that IOMG self insure for TT - so essentially pay for any mess made? 

I'm not saying this in an argumentative way, but those death and injury sums assured are a joke! £10k for a death? I can't believe it's so low.

It would barely cover repatriation of the body.

Edited June 17, 2022 by 0bserver

[Gladys]

1 minute ago, 0bserver said:

There's been mention before that IOMG self insure for TT - so essentially pay for any mess made? 

I'm not saying this in an argumentative way, but those death and injury sums assured are a joke! £10k for a death? I can't believe it's so low. 

It is open to competitors to arrange their own top-up insurance,  surely?

[WTF]

12 minutes ago, Gladys said:

It is open to competitors to arrange their own top-up insurance,  surely?

everything is up to the competitors , including whether they actually compete or not , but some people don't like them having the choice.

[Newbie]

5 minutes ago, 0bserver said:

I'm not saying this in an argumentative way, but those death and injury sums assured are a joke! £10k for a death? I can't believe it's so low. 

I don't think that the insurance that competitors are required to have (and referred to in the regulations) is primarily intended to compensate them/their families for injury/loss of life. It is intended to cover the cost of medical treatment and/or repatriation.

The personal accident part is included because it comes as a part of the insurance package but it is not the reason competitors are required to have insurance. Competitors are free to make their own life insurance arrangements on top of these, in the same way that any citizen is free to take out life insurance if they so wish, depending upon their personal circumstances.

 

[Roger Mexico]

23 minutes ago, Newbie said:

I don't think that the insurance that competitors are required to have (and referred to in the regulations) is primarily intended to compensate them/their families for injury/loss of life. It is intended to cover the cost of medical treatment and/or repatriation.

The personal accident part is included because it comes as a part of the insurance package but it is not the reason competitors are required to have insurance. Competitors are free to make their own life insurance arrangements on top of these, in the same way that any citizen is free to take out life insurance if they so wish, depending upon their personal circumstances.

Actually if you look at the requirement for (effectively) non-UK competitors, those contain separate cover for medical treatment and repatriation.  I assume for UK-based competitors the Manx NHS pays for the transfer of patients and the UK NHS for any further treatment once they get there.  The only query would be over who pays for repatriation of the bodies of those who die on the Island.

Given the incredibly high level of danger to those competing in the TT, I would imagine additional cover would be unobtainable or extremely expensive.  Ordinary insurance policies would certainly exclude  death and injury from such accidents.

[Happier diner]

6 minutes ago, Roger Mexico said:

Actually if you look at the requirement for (effectively) non-UK competitors, those contain separate cover for medical treatment and repatriation.  I assume for UK-based competitors the Manx NHS pays for the transfer of patients and the UK NHS for any further treatment once they get there.  The only query would be over who pays for repatriation of the bodies of those who die on the Island.

Given the incredibly high level of danger to those competing in the TT, I would imagine additional cover would be unobtainable or extremely expensive.  Ordinary insurance policies would certainly exclude  death and injury from such accidents.

I was surprised that Insurance was available for such a high risk activity. But it is. Quite a few companies do it. However the payout limits are a bit tight to say the least and maybe that's the way the deal with the high likelihood

The ACU themselves have a policy;

If the event is a premier event what are the Personal Accident benefits for competitor?

Death                                                   £10,000
Permanent Disablement                  £20,000
Quadriplegia                                       £40,000
Hospital benefit                                 £2,000 following a 28 day stay in hospital ( 14 days for Trials riders)