TT 2022 ??

[2112]

On 1/25/2022 at 10:43 PM, The Voice of Reason said:

Like Moses?

Well Moses came down the mountain and came up with the 10 commandments. I’d leave Moorehouse and Glover up on the mountain. 

[Roger Mexico]

1 hour ago, joebean said:

I have not read about the changes to MGP, as I am not particularly interested in it (despite being a bike-rider) but it seems to me that there is always great resistance to any changes in the TT or MGP from those people who want everything to stay the same, regardless of the changes in the racing, motorcycling and tourism industries.

I get the impression that the real problem isn't the changes in themselves, but the lack of consultation (including with the industries you mention) and the very short notice given, which has already led to cancellations as said above.  After two cancelled years it would have been sensible to stick with the existing format while consulting and then announce the changes this Spring/Summer for 2023. 

But there's a certain sort of management mentality that thinks it has to change things to show who is in charge and to justify their jobs

[joebean]

10 hours ago, Roger Mexico said:

I get the impression that the real problem isn't the changes in themselves, but the lack of consultation (including with the industries you mention) and the very short notice given, which has already led to cancellations as said above.  After two cancelled years it would have been sensible to stick with the existing format while consulting and then announce the changes this Spring/Summer for 2023. 

But there's a certain sort of management mentality that thinks it has to change things to show who is in charge and to justify their jobs

Yes, but I can’t recall a single proposed change to either event that wasn’t greeted with a fair amount of protest from the “if it ain’t broke, don’t fix it” brigade. With that attitude prevailing, both events would have become irrelevant and defunct years ago. The problem with events that rely on “enthusiasts” is that enthusiasts tend to be enthusiastic about what they know and unenthusiastic about any alteration to it. When there is never going to be a good time to announce change, you might as well announce it now. That holds true in every enterprise, including road racing events. 

[paswt]

11 hours ago, joebean said:

Hardly. Despite the media coverage of this, only a relative handful of marshals have expressed their indignation on 3fm's Facebook page. I suspect, as Max has said, the ex-CSM supports the racing and wants it to go ahead and most marshals will feel exactly the same.

I have not read about the changes to MGP, as I am not particularly interested in it (despite being a bike-rider) but it seems to me that there is always great resistance to any changes in the TT or MGP from those people who want everything to stay the same, regardless of the changes in the racing, motorcycling and tourism industries. These people forget that the events exist solely to draw visitors to the Island. The Government pays for the events to do this, with our money. Maximising the appeal of the events to visitors is the primary issue; what marshals want to see (outside of those that are also visitors) and what competitors might want, ideally, are secondary considerations. Having someone in a senior position where he or she can influence others, who is critical of the organiser and the events being staged, cannot be very helpful. I suspect a judgement had to be made about what to do about this. Time will tell if it was the right one. It also seems to be a bit rich to criticise the organisers for their safety strategy when you are not the person who is paying the insurance premium or has the job of protecting the reputation of the event and the Island. 

My expectation is that this fuss will blow over before any marshals are asked to sign on. It makes no difference to me whether this CSM is reinstated or not. I spent a few years marshalling and won't be doing it again. Nothing to do with ACU or Gary Thompson or Paul Phillips. I just moved on, and so did my interest. There is more to motorcycling than going as fast as possible in (big) circles. 

Your "suspicions " in relation to the ex CSM are perhaps well founded  ( in that marshals volunteer to support the racing ) however I would venture to suggest that those marshals in his and adjoining sectors may be the ones vote with their feet.

Who exactly has criticised the organisers 'safety strategy' ? 

In the past I emailed (a number of times) the TTMA in relation to trackside improvements that could possibly enhance the chances of/ minimise the risk of serious injury  in the event of an "off" at a corner where  sadly there had been two fatals.

I received one  acknowledgement of receipt saying 'they' would get back, .... they didn't.

The CSM concerned is/was well respected , only time will tell in relation to your 'expectations'.

just saying

 

[Non-Believer]

41 minutes ago, joebean said:

The problem with events that rely on “enthusiasts” is that enthusiasts tend to be enthusiastic about what they know and unenthusiastic about any alteration to it.

Enthusiasts weren't enthusiastic about proposed changes to the Jurby Festival either and look what happened there?

[paswt]

18 minutes ago, Non-Believer said:

Enthusiasts weren't enthusiastic about proposed changes to the Jurby Festival either and look what happened there?

"Jurby Day" was run by  the volunteer members of the local branch of the VMCC.

The Government decided to get involved. Unfortunately JB the enthusiasts were not impressed by the opinions of those who clearly didn't understand.

I heard a member of Gov say that they would take over 'Jurby Day' and run it properly as they could provide a far better event than that run by a bunch of geriatric bikers.......... That went well !!!

The Local VMCC had a meeting recently with  Mr Callister about running a similar event around MGP/ Southern 100 . Mr Callister said that there was enough going on and an event should be put on in winter ! 🤣

"There comes a time in every organisation when it's ability to succeed in spite of itself runs out"

Edited January 27, 2022 by paswt

[Max Power]

3 hours ago, joebean said:

Yes, but I can’t recall a single proposed change to either event that wasn’t greeted with a fair amount of protest from the “if it ain’t broke, don’t fix it” brigade. With that attitude prevailing, both events would have become irrelevant and defunct years ago. The problem with events that rely on “enthusiasts” is that enthusiasts tend to be enthusiastic about what they know and unenthusiastic about any alteration to it. When there is never going to be a good time to announce change, you might as well announce it now. That holds true in every enterprise, including road racing events. 

I think that's true, but enthusiasts know what enthusiasts like and want, it's when you try to appeal to a broader audience that you need input from outside sources. I think in the case of the Jurby festival, it was an event run for enthusiasts, most of the visitors were enthusiasts. A friend visiting with his family turned up a couple of years ago and started comparing it unfavourably with Car Fest North, an event run by Chris Evans for families rather than purist car enthusiasts.    

[joebean]

1 hour ago, Max Power said:

I think that's true, but enthusiasts know what enthusiasts like and want, it's when you try to appeal to a broader audience that you need input from outside sources. I think in the case of the Jurby festival, it was an event run for enthusiasts, most of the visitors were enthusiasts. A friend visiting with his family turned up a couple of years ago and started comparing it unfavourably with Car Fest North, an event run by Chris Evans for families rather than purist car enthusiasts.    

All true, but the problem must be that the events get more expensive to run each year and there should be an expectation that the numbers attending and subsequent returns, grow to match the expense. The events are tied to a bigger and better mantra at a time when the enthusiast niche they appeal to is getter smaller. So, the broader audience is what they must aim for, unless a slow decline is accepted. And then you have the enthusiast resistance to any change on top.. I’m very glad it’s nothing to do with me. 

[2112]

16 hours ago, Roger Mexico said:

I get the impression that the real problem isn't the changes in themselves, but the lack of consultation (including with the industries you mention) and the very short notice given, which has already led to cancellations as said above.  After two cancelled years it would have been sensible to stick with the existing format while consulting and then announce the changes this Spring/Summer for 2023. 

But there's a certain sort of management mentality that thinks it has to change things to show who is in charge and to justify their jobs

Common sense doesn’t come into things sadly. When I read online the article within the IOM Newspaper website, the comment by the CoC with his rationale for the dismissal -

‘He posted some disparaging remarks on Facebook that went against what DfE and race organiser are trying to achieve’ I thought the CoC is employed by the race organisers? What’s the role of the DfE in this sorry affair. I hope that Rob Callister or Dr Allinson didn’t add their two pennerth in, and it led to the CSM downfall? Sounds like a dictatorship, resistance is futile. 

Was the CoC trying to say that the CSM had brought his position in disrepute? Or was he inferring that the CSM was bringing the TTMA into disrepute? Do TT Marshalls have to sign a code of conduct? Is there a disciplinary process? How does this sit legally? I say this as if you are an Advocate, can you criticise the Deemster or judicial system, without being on the receiving end of a dressing down? Will be interesting to hear the thoughts from a legal perspective, 

 

Edited January 27, 2022 by 2112

[Roger Mexico]

8 minutes ago, joebean said:

Yes, but I can’t recall a single proposed change to either event that wasn’t greeted with a fair amount of protest from the “if it ain’t broke, don’t fix it” brigade. With that attitude prevailing, both events would have become irrelevant and defunct years ago. The problem with events that rely on “enthusiasts” is that enthusiasts tend to be enthusiastic about what they know and unenthusiastic about any alteration to it. When there is never going to be a good time to announce change, you might as well announce it now. That holds true in every enterprise, including road racing events. 

It may be true that there would be some automatic objections - there usually are.  But the opposite doesn't really apply either - that any change must be an improvement.  But even if a change is universally applauded, it has to be brought in at the right time with enough notice to allow people to adapt.

One of the things that the DfE and its predecessors have shown themselves perpetually unable to understand is the timescale under which tourism and related industries operate.  A tourism strategy from say 2020 will be produced in Spring 2020 rather than 2018 or even earlier when the operators they have to deal with are planning for 2020 and beyond.  This is another example of this.

[Max Power]

1 hour ago, joebean said:

All true, but the problem must be that the events get more expensive to run each year and there should be an expectation that the numbers attending and subsequent returns, grow to match the expense. The events are tied to a bigger and better mantra at a time when the enthusiast niche they appeal to is getter smaller. So, the broader audience is what they must aim for, unless a slow decline is accepted. And then you have the enthusiast resistance to any change on top.. I’m very glad it’s nothing to do with me. 

I agree, and the real task is in making the enthusiasts understand and accept this. There will always be those who won't accept change no matter what, but I think the majority have the sense to see the issues. Nobody likes to be told that their lifelong passion is becoming less relevant by the year but as people get older and die off, it does become a smaller part of what may be a minority interest anyway. 

[Boris Johnson]

1 hour ago, Max Power said:

I agree, and the real task is in making the enthusiasts understand and accept this. There will always be those who won't accept change no matter what, but I think the majority have the sense to see the issues. Nobody likes to be told that their lifelong passion is becoming less relevant by the year but as people get older and die off, it does become a smaller part of what may be a minority interest anyway. 

Which is another way of saying the TT/ MGP days are numbered.

[Max Power]

2 hours ago, Boris Johnson said:

Which is another way of saying the TT/ MGP days are numbered.

That's not what I was inferring, I meant that changes are what keep things relevant and resistance to change is what would number the days of anything. 

[hissingsid]

I think the speed of this change has inconvenienced a lot of people it would have been better scheduled for next year.  Lots of people coming for the races, TT and MGP, book their ferry crossings and accommodation a year ahead also book time off work etc.   I wonder how many hotels and other accommodation will be honoring money already paid two years ago and the bookings have been rolled over so that they will in some cases feeding and looking after guests without payment this year.

[Omobono]

22 minutes ago, hissingsid said:

I think the speed of this change has inconvenienced a lot of people it would have been better scheduled for next year.  Lots of people coming for the races, TT and MGP, book their ferry crossings and accommodation a year ahead also book time off work etc.   I wonder how many hotels and other accommodation will be honoring money already paid two years ago and the bookings have been rolled over so that they will in some cases feeding and looking after guests without payment this year.

If ever there was a time to just try to deliver a  post Covid  TT and MGP for 2022 using existing resources  not rock the boat  ,  and see how we are going ,

No!      big stone thrown into the pond which has sent ripples everywhere and destroying what ever good will might have existed  between the race organisers  and those who give their time freely for the good of the event and the Isle of Man's economy  , huge increases in cost for running the events ,and a reduction in Racing days for the MGP    massive demands on government resources elsewhere , so  we don't really know   if the races are going to get priority for  motorsport  finance ,  plus massive amounts to be spent on the circuit trying to bring it up to scratch ,

and finally lots of fans stuck on the Isle of Man from the Monday  of MGP week  with nothing to watch  mainly because they have booked the ferry 2 years ago in good faith  ,and the steam packet couldn't get them home any earlier anyway 

What a shambles ! and the Isle of Man will suffer because of it .