TT 2022 ??

[Non-Believer]

2 minutes ago, Max Power said:

It has yes, and I know some won't see this, because it doesn't suit their argument, but he and the others who set off in contravention of instructions given at their briefing, without question, must bear at least a part of the responsibility for what transpired. They were all experienced riders and not newcomers, several of whom had been in that situation before. 

You can say that they were obeying an instruction, but as we know, people make mistakes. 

There is that point but - riders have previously been returned to the Grandstand in the reverse direction in the past. How was Mercer to have known that this instance was any different? He was being instructed to do so by a Course Official. He wouldn't know what the circumstances were or if the instruction was being amended to suit any circumstances?

[Max Power]

1 minute ago, Non-Believer said:

There is that point but - riders have previously been returned to the Grandstand in the reverse direction in the past. How was Mercer to have known that this instance was any different? He was being instructed to do so by a Course Official. He wouldn't know what the circumstances were or if the instruction was being amended to suit any circumstances?

Travelling marshals always escort them and that was always made clear in briefings.

[paswt]

9 minutes ago, Non-Believer said:

There is that point but - riders have previously been returned to the Grandstand in the reverse direction in the past. How was Mercer to have known that this instance was any different? He was being instructed to do so by a Course Official. He wouldn't know what the circumstances were or if the instruction was being amended to suit any circumstances?

In the past riders have returned to the grandstand , both ways, led by a Travelling Marshal under 'waved yellows'. If ,as Max has stated the briefing include this instruction then perhaps the CoC's instructions 'trumps' that of a marshal.

I'm not apportioning blame , as I don't know the facts and as I stated earlier there were a number of factors/ mistakes that led to the incident and until/ unless the full facts are disclosed by the ACU we will not be in a position to apportion blame .

ETA Sorry Max , just seen your post , I wasn't sure of what the Riders briefing included 

Edited February 4, 2022 by paswt

[Non-Believer]

8 minutes ago, Max Power said:

Travelling marshals always escort them and that was always made clear in briefings.

But Max, Mercer wasn't alone obviously, a whole group of riders were mobilised to return. Why didn't any of them refuse to do so or query the instruction as well? And if they did, their concerns were clearly over-ridden?

 

Edited February 4, 2022 by Non-Believer
extra bit

[Andy Onchan]

22 hours ago, Derek Flint said:

The reason the police have to go is because somebody was dead. They act as the Coroner’s Officer to gather information as to how the individual lost their life. The use of a core team to do this enabled efficiency so that the rest of the force could actually get on with policing. 

Getting there promptly is important to secure and preserve evidence, as marshals have a bit of a tendency to start clearing up, and key witnesses tend to wander off. 

The fact is that the system that should have safely got them there failed. I know that the official driving the car isn’t everyone’s cup of tea, but that day he was as much a victim as anyone involved

Of course, if the Bobbies hadn't been removed from sector stations then a car wouldn't need to hurtle round the course in order to preserve the evidence. Unintended consequences I think are the words to use.  

[quilp]

Why isn't there Island-wide 2-way radio coverage? 

[Max Power]

3 minutes ago, Non-Believer said:

But Max, Mercer wasn't alone obviously, a whole group of riders were mobilised to return. Why didn't any of them refuse to do so or query the instruction as well? And if they did, their concerns were clearly over-ridden?

 

I think that's the key to the whole thing NB, and probably the weakness in the procedure? People don't tend to question instructions, particularly if it means that they don't have to hang around any longer than is necessary.   

[Max Power]

5 minutes ago, quilp said:

Why isn't there Island-wide 2-way radio coverage? 

There is.

[paswt]

14 minutes ago, Non-Believer said:

But Max, Mercer wasn't alone obviously, a whole group of riders were mobilised to return. Why didn't any of them refuse to do so or query the instruction as well?

I'd put it down to human nature ( "he's gone why can't we?"), the marshal at Sulby bridge stopped riders joining Mr Mercer and co ( as evidenced by the pic on the  front of the local paper ).

It would be interesting to know if Mr Mercer was on his own or in a group  when he set off and if and how many other riders just 'tagged on' behind ( if they did and saw that Mr Mercers group were not led by a TM they should have stayed put in accordance with the Riders briefing).

I have on one (solitary) occasion confirmed with Race Control that a stopped rider was retiring as opposed to making adjustments

 Some time later he wandered off (after having a brew, if memory serves) got on his bike and set off only to make it a couple of hundred yards down the road . On cold tyres he was an arrogant selfish menace who clearly thought the rules didn't apply to him. Reported him to race control . 

Edited February 4, 2022 by paswt

[Non-Believer]

4 minutes ago, Max Power said:

I think that's the key to the whole thing NB, and probably the weakness in the procedure? People don't tend to question instructions, particularly if it means that they don't have to hang around any longer than is necessary.   

Purely my "take", but if a whole group of riders, including experienced leading lights, were convinced to return in the fashion that they were then it suggests to me that the instruction came from somebody with enough authority to "sway" their judgement. It may not have been CoC; but it was somebody with authority, not an ordinary "Joe" in an orange bib?

[Max Power]

1 minute ago, Non-Believer said:

Purely my "take", but if a whole group of riders, including experienced leading lights, were convinced to return in the fashion that they were then it suggests to me that the instruction came from somebody with enough authority to "sway" their judgement. It may not have been CoC; but it was somebody with authority, not an ordinary "Joe" in an orange bib?

I think you'd be surprised how riders think sometimes. They see nothing more important than getting back and getting going again, rational judgement doesn't enter into it. They wouldn't need much encouragement from anyone to have left, I can assure you of that.

I was once trying to hold back a group of big name stars of yesteryear at Creg ny Baa. They were parading from there once the main parade had left the startline. While awaiting the signal that it was clear to go, one of them decided he'd waited long enough and away he went, the rest just took off with him. No amount of waving and jumping up and down from me could stop them.

[Happier diner]

1 hour ago, Max Power said:

I think you'd be surprised how riders think sometimes. They see nothing more important than getting back and getting going again, rational judgement doesn't enter into it. They wouldn't need much encouragement from anyone to have left, I can assure you of that.

I was once trying to hold back a group of big name stars of yesteryear at Creg ny Baa. They were parading from there once the main parade had left the startline. While awaiting the signal that it was clear to go, one of them decided he'd waited long enough and away he went, the rest just took off with him. No amount of waving and jumping up and down from me could stop them.

Maybe they had been watching the grand national.

[ellanvannin2010]

2 hours ago, Max Power said:

I think you'd be surprised how riders think sometimes. They see nothing more important than getting back and getting going again, rational judgement doesn't enter into it. They wouldn't need much encouragement from anyone to have left, I can assure you of that.

I was once trying to hold back a group of big name stars of yesteryear at Creg ny Baa. They were parading from there once the main parade had left the startline. While awaiting the signal that it was clear to go, one of them decided he'd waited long enough and away he went, the rest just took off with him. No amount of waving and jumping up and down from me could stop them.

Were they then subject to any sort of penalty for ignoring a marshals instruction?.

 

[Max Power]

1 hour ago, ellanvannin2010 said:

Were they then subject to any sort of penalty for ignoring a marshals instruction?.

 

Nothing to penalise them with I suppose, they weren't competitors and were ageing 'gods' in their own right! The 'ringleader' was never invited back though.

[ellanvannin2010]

2 minutes ago, Max Power said:

Nothing to penalise them with I suppose, they weren't competitors and were ageing 'gods' in their own right! The 'ringleader' was never invited back though.

I suppose possibly they were on closed roads without authorisation and at the very least any attendance money/ expenses could have been withheld.