0bserver Posted March 23, 2022 Share Posted March 23, 2022 A timely FOI response... certainly no lack of highly paid employees within the DOI Ports Division... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IOM Posted March 23, 2022 Share Posted March 23, 2022 1 hour ago, NoTailT said: I don't get how they can throw £4mln at underwriting Loganair London flights when there's commercially viable situations and the missed opportunity to have Flybe mk2 on Heathrow. Some people here just aren't getting this. We will continue to throw money at Loganair for whatever excuse they come up with and when their underwritten flying across the UK comes under pressure they'll be coming cap in hand to the Scottish and Manx Governments looking for a bailout. Need I remind everyone of the strop when Stobart Air appealed the PTS tender (and won) when Loganair management threatened to pull all routes unless they were awarded PTS. They only care about underwritten risk-free flying. Once the £4mln London pot is used up, they'll pull the routes and blame the traffic. But it was always going to be ludicrous sending an ATR in to Heathtow and City. IOM-Manchester on Monday. 147 people easyjet at 1pm. 14 people Loganair an hour or so later. People are happily voting with their feet and one is heavily subsidised, one isn't. Ironically the commercially 'at risk' operator is the one doing well, because they are forced to be savvier with their fares and yield management given it is THEIR risk. We've been here before in other sectors with underwriting. It's bollocks. Really this shows you just do not understand the aviation sector . Have you ever thought that EasyJet marginal cost the Isle of Man because it’s a good use of spare flying time after running out on more profitable routes . That’s why you get random timed flights ! I doubt they would even go near the Isle of Man if they could get another rotation from an aircraft and crew to one of their preferred destinations. To confirm my position for those who say I am EasyJet basher I have no problem with them coming here but the island needs regular frequent connections so an EasyJet service needs to be supported by a smaller operator unless EasyJet put on multiple rotations on each route which they won’t . The situation we have had with London has been nothing short of ridiculous and it should never be allowed to happen again . People on here should be happy we now have a good choice of services and get out there and tell everyone the Isle of Man is open for business . Full planes to London means no underwriting costs and more money on island and that is good for everyone. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ellanvannin2010 Posted March 23, 2022 Share Posted March 23, 2022 (edited) 9 minutes ago, NoTailT said: easyjet have been long established on e..g Gatwick Why should they be cut off and why should we taxpayers be funding competition against a stable commercial operation? Maybe because they appear to be not willing to fly a schedule that is of benefit to the IOM and its economic prosperity?. Would we need to do funding if they were not there?. Edited March 23, 2022 by ellanvannin2010 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
doc.fixit Posted March 23, 2022 Share Posted March 23, 2022 2 minutes ago, IOM said: Really this shows you just do not understand the aviation sector . Have you ever thought that EasyJet marginal cost the Isle of Man because it’s a good use of spare flying time after running out on more profitable routes . That’s why you get random timed flights ! I doubt they would even go near the Isle of Man if they could get another rotation from an aircraft and crew to one of their preferred destinations. To confirm my position for those who say I am EasyJet basher I have no problem with them coming here but the island needs regular frequent connections so an EasyJet service needs to be supported by a smaller operator unless EasyJet put on multiple rotations on each route which they won’t . The situation we have had with London has been nothing short of ridiculous and it should never be allowed to happen again . People on here should be happy we now have a good choice of services and get out there and tell everyone the Isle of Man is open for business . Full planes to London means no underwriting costs and more money on island and that is good for everyone. I honestly don't understand why so many folk want to go to London. I can't remember the last time I went there, but then I can't always remember yesterday! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roger Mexico Posted March 23, 2022 Share Posted March 23, 2022 3 minutes ago, 0bserver said: A timely FOI response... certainly no lack of highly paid employees within the DOI Ports Division... It would be interesting to see those figures without ATC who (especially given that they seem to be on long hours at the moment) must make up some of the numbers - a lot of sites quote £50,000 plus for experienced ones. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NoTailT Posted March 23, 2022 Share Posted March 23, 2022 6 minutes ago, IOM said: Really this shows you just do not understand the aviation sector . Have you ever thought that EasyJet marginal cost the Isle of Man because it’s a good use of spare flying time after running out on more profitable routes . That’s why you get random timed flights ! I doubt they would even go near the Isle of Man if they could get another rotation from an aircraft and crew to one of their preferred destinations. To confirm my position for those who say I am EasyJet basher I have no problem with them coming here but the island needs regular frequent connections so an EasyJet service needs to be supported by a smaller operator unless EasyJet put on multiple rotations on each route which they won’t . The situation we have had with London has been nothing short of ridiculous and it should never be allowed to happen again . People on here should be happy we now have a good choice of services and get out there and tell everyone the Isle of Man is open for business . Full planes to London means no underwriting costs and more money on island and that is good for everyone. Firstly, you're wrong. I'm from an era of Shorts 360s bopping around this place. Outdated, maybe. But not ignorant. I guarantee you even if the Loganair planes are packed, 'economic forces' and 'lack of forward bookings' will kill both London routes once they've fully sweated as much of the underwrite as they possibly can. Just ask the folk at the council down in Cornwall, or Carlisle, or Teeside. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IOM Posted March 23, 2022 Share Posted March 23, 2022 3 minutes ago, NoTailT said: Firstly, you're wrong. I'm from an era of Shorts 360s bopping around this place. Outdated, maybe. But not ignorant. I guarantee you even if the Loganair planes are packed, 'economic forces' and 'lack of forward bookings' will kill both London routes once they've fully sweated as much of the underwrite as they possibly can. Just ask the folk at the council down in Cornwall, or Carlisle, or Teeside. If the planes were full there would be no underwriting costs . For the good of the island get out there and get people to use the planes . Otherwise what is your alternative back to one EasyJet a day to London and at best two to Manchester. Do you think that’s a good outcome and in the best interests of the island ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
0bserver Posted March 23, 2022 Share Posted March 23, 2022 The Isle of Man (via Tynwald) needs to decide what it actually wants. Either a fully open skies arrangement where we just take what is offered by airlines - or alternatively some kind of Public Service Obligation (PSO) on routes (and frequencies) that are deemed to be essential. At the moment we seem to have a foot in both camps and we're getting the worst of both worlds while paying a King's Ransom for the privilege. 3 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roger Mexico Posted March 23, 2022 Share Posted March 23, 2022 29 minutes ago, ellanvannin2010 said: You could say we have spent a lot more on infrastructure improvements to accommodate the large planes of one operator. The usual reminder that easyJet started serving the Isle of Man before the runway extension opened. Their presence was only ever used to justify it after the event, but it wasn't really necessary. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NoTailT Posted March 23, 2022 Share Posted March 23, 2022 2 minutes ago, IOM said: If the planes were full there would be no underwriting costs . For the good of the island get out there and get people to use the planes . Otherwise what is your alternative back to one EasyJet a day to London and at best two to Manchester. Do you think that’s a good outcome and in the best interests of the island ? So basically we as taxpayers should go out and choose to pay Loganair fares over easyJet so our government don't waste our taxpayers money underwriting the route anyway...? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Wright Posted March 23, 2022 Share Posted March 23, 2022 12 minutes ago, IOM said: If the planes were full there would be no underwriting costs . For the good of the island get out there and get people to use the planes . Otherwise what is your alternative back to one EasyJet a day to London and at best two to Manchester. Do you think that’s a good outcome and in the best interests of the island ? That outcome re EasyJet is more likely if LoganAir is full, with underwriting. Unless the market grows. We are already at two EZY to LGW most days. Three on some. Ill continue to fly the route and time that suits me best, regardless of airline. That said, however, the LoganAir PRM assistance booking is totally crap. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NoTailT Posted March 23, 2022 Share Posted March 23, 2022 (edited) 5 minutes ago, John Wright said: That outcome re EasyJet is more likely if LoganAir is full, with underwriting. Unless the market grows. We are already at two EZY to LGW most days. Three on some. Ill continue to fly the route and time that suits me best, regardless of airline. That said, however, the LoganAir PRM assistance booking is totally crap. I was / am genuinely looking forward to Heathrow so I can connect onwards. Saves flying to Gatwick and slogging across London. But I had heard recently that Menzies in IOM can provide your through tickets for connecting flights with e.g. BA but they're unable to check your bags all the way when you have a Loganair flight, so at e.g. Manchester you need to exit and grab your bags, then re-check in at the BA desk if you were doing IOM-MAN-LHR. Same is going to be an issue for IOM-LHR-X. Edited March 23, 2022 by NoTailT Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roger Mexico Posted March 23, 2022 Share Posted March 23, 2022 1 hour ago, NoTailT said: I don't get how they can throw £4mln at underwriting Loganair London flights when there's commercially viable situations and the missed opportunity to have Flybe mk2 on Heathrow. Probably because the Island is full of self-important 'international businessmen' who insist that there should be numerous daily flights to whatever London airport they currently fancy, otherwise the Island's economy will immediately collapse. They never use them and if they do they use easyJet as it's cheaper. The whole underwriting thing looks, if not designed to fail, certainly intended to support saying "I told you so" after it goes wrong. The Heathrow portion (which is presumably just slot-sitting) is especially as it will just take traffic away from City. 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IOM Posted March 23, 2022 Share Posted March 23, 2022 43 minutes ago, NoTailT said: So basically we as taxpayers should go out and choose to pay Loganair fares over easyJet so our government don't waste our taxpayers money underwriting the route anyway...? No use whichever you want that’s your choice . Interesting that on previous posts on this thread I have seen EasyJet lovers coming back on Loganair because the timings on the return leg were better !!!! But overall perhaps you might want to think a little more broader and encourage friends family etc to come to the island let’s get all the planes filled up ! More people on island more benefit to the economy it’s not rocket science . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IOM Posted March 23, 2022 Share Posted March 23, 2022 1 hour ago, doc.fixit said: I honestly don't understand why so many folk want to go to London. I can't remember the last time I went there, but then I can't always remember yesterday! Ask about 15,000- 20,000 per month ( prior to the pandemic). Bear in mind the London airports serve a very large catchment area including the South East. And where do you think business links to? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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