Airport.

[Roger Mexico]

1 hour ago, IOM said:

Ask about 15,000- 20,000 per month ( prior to the pandemic). Bear in mind the London airports serve a very large catchment area including the South East. And where do you think business links to?

Total pax figures for 2019 were:

Gatwick  176,142

Heathrow  18,016

London City  56,032

Luton  25,006

Total 275,196 ie 22,933 per month

Heathrow only ran from 21 April and ran till October (it was only one flight a day).  It think Luton was only Summer (easyJet).

So Gatwick dominates (64%) and of course that has the biggest 'local' catchment of the London Airports as well (S London/Kent /Sussex)

Edited March 23, 2022 by Roger Mexico
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[IOM]

40 minutes ago, Roger Mexico said:

Total pax figures for 2019 were:

Gatwick  176,142

Heathrow  18,016

London City  56,032

Luton  25,006

Total 275,196 ie 22,933 per month

Heathrow only ran from 21 April and ran till October (it was only one flight a day).  It think Luton was only Summer (easyJet).

So Gatwick dominates (64%) and of course that has the biggest 'local' catchment of the London Airports as well (S London/Kent /Sussex)

Yes exactly a lot of people ! I was making reference to an earlier poster who was suggesting people did not go to London and the figures prove it’s a very important market that needs more than one flight a day ! 

[0bserver]

45 minutes ago, Roger Mexico said:

Total pax figures for 2019 were:

Gatwick  176,142

Heathrow  18,016

London City  56,032

Luton  25,006

Total 275,196 ie 22,933 per month

Heathrow only ran from 21 April and ran till October (it was only one flight a day).  It think Luton was only Summer (easyJet).

So Gatwick dominates (64%) and of course that has the biggest 'local' catchment of the London Airports as well (S London/Kent /Sussex)

Personally I feel it justifies two airports with different airlines. LGW with EZY seems to suit leisure and LCY with Loganair or Flybe would be great for business. 

It (should) also protect against airline failure if Loganair went under. 

[doc.fixit]

If your response was to me I made no suggestion that folk didn't go to LONDON. I merely asked why, which was answered as going for business.

I am still be-fuddled! Don't other centres such as Birmingham, Manchester, Leeds, Glasgow, Edinburgh do business?

What exactly is so necessary about London. Note, I am referring to London itself, however you may get there.

[Roger Mexico]

20 minutes ago, IOM said:

Yes exactly a lot of people ! I was making reference to an earlier poster who was suggesting people did not go to London and the figures prove it’s a very important market that needs more than one flight a day ! 

But that's what it's getting.  Even without the LCY and LHR flights, easyJet were moving to two most days.  Overall pax numbers are still down on 2019 - February's figures were 35,160 compared to 60,851 three years before.  It's 58% -  an improvement on even on January which was 46%. But it will take time to get near to previous levels and service will adjust as they do.

Edited March 23, 2022 by Roger Mexico
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[0bserver]

5 minutes ago, doc.fixit said:

If your response was to me I made no suggestion that folk didn't go to LONDON. I merely asked why, which was answered as going for business.

I am still be-fuddled! Don't other centres such as Birmingham, Manchester, Leeds, Glasgow, Edinburgh do business?

What exactly is so necessary about London. Note, I am referring to London itself, however you may get there.

Probably because it has lots of businesses there? The same reason more people travel to Douglas each day than say Port St. Mary. 

Number of businesses per 10,000 population in leading cities in the United Kingdom (UK) in 2018

[Roger Mexico]

8 minutes ago, 0bserver said:

Personally I feel it justifies two airports with different airlines. LGW with EZY seems to suit leisure and LCY with Loganair or Flybe would be great for business. 

It (should) also protect against airline failure if Loganair went under. 

I suspect airlines are going to be a bit cautious about relying on business travellers for a while yet.  The market has been gradually falling for a couple of decades and the new ways of working that Covid has brought in may change things a lot.  That's even without all the associated stresses from the economic situation.

[ellanvannin2010]

11 minutes ago, Roger Mexico said:

But that's what it's getting.  Even without the LCY and LHR flights, easyJet were moving to two most days.  Overall pax numbers are still down on 2019 - February's figures were 35,160 compared to 60,851 three years before.  It's 58% -  an improvement on even on January which was 46%. But it will take time to get near to previous levels and service will adjust as they do.

It is back to one a day at random times from the start of the winter timetable currently.

 

 

[IOM]

2 minutes ago, Roger Mexico said:

I suspect airlines are going to be a bit cautious about relying on business travellers for a while yet.  The market has been gradually falling for a couple of decades and the new ways of working that Covid has brought in may change things a lot.  That's even without all the associated stresses from the economic situation.

When will you realise LCY and LHR are not just used for business? If you ever travelled on those routes pre pandemic you would see. There are lots of people who want to travel from West London ( Oxford, Berkshire etc) and North London (Luton, St Albans etc)  for which City or Heathrow are much more convenient than Gatwick. By your own numbers there were nearly 100,000 passengers in other London airports ( Heathrow, City, Luton) and that's not insignificant.  I just don't get what you think is the answer if you don't want someone to fly into City or Heathrow just a twice a day Easyjet at random times?

[NoTailT]

8 minutes ago, IOM said:

When will you realise LCY and LHR are not just used for business? If you ever travelled on those routes pre pandemic you would see. There are lots of people who want to travel from West London ( Oxford, Berkshire etc) and North London (Luton, St Albans etc)  for which City or Heathrow are much more convenient than Gatwick. By your own numbers there were nearly 100,000 passengers in other London airports ( Heathrow, City, Luton) and that's not insignificant.  I just don't get what you think is the answer if you don't want someone to fly into City or Heathrow just a twice a day Easyjet at random times?

To be fair I always used to opt for LCY when I was staying in London.

What concerns me here is that pre-pandemic when the route was subsidised by £1.2m/Yr the loads were average, on a 50 seat aircraft. Now we have a 70 seat aircraft being underwritten. I'm afraid the writing is on the wall.

As I mentioned earlier too, Loganair with their BA relationship can issue through tickets but for some reason the IOM handlers can't check bags through, which is going to cause problems for many people seeing the advantage of the Heathrow and BA structure I think.

[IOM]

Just now, NoTailT said:

To be fair I always used to opt for LCY when I was staying in London.

What concerns me here is that pre-pandemic when the route was subsidised by £1.2m/Yr the loads were average, on a 50 seat aircraft. Now we have a 70 seat aircraft being underwritten. I'm afraid the writing is on the wall.

As I mentioned earlier too, Loganair with their BA relationship can issue through tickets but for some reason the IOM handlers can't check bags through, which is going to cause problems for many people seeing the advantage of the Heathrow and BA structure I think.

Try being a bit more positive and stop talking it down before it’s even started ! London city will only have two rotations a day and in fact only one on a Friday and Sunday i think that’s about right . I agree I am not sure about three rotations maybe the mid day Heathrow might not last ,?time will tell but please stop saying the writing is on the wall before it’s even taken off ! As I have consistently said let’s get out there and encourage people to book tickets to come to the island that’s good news ! 

[NoTailT]

8 minutes ago, IOM said:

Try being a bit more positive and stop talking it down before it’s even started ! London city will only have two rotations a day and in fact only one on a Friday and Sunday i think that’s about right . I agree I am not sure about three rotations maybe the mid day Heathrow might not last ,?time will tell but please stop saying the writing is on the wall before it’s even taken off ! As I have consistently said let’s get out there and encourage people to book tickets to come to the island that’s good news ! 

Let's be honest, if IOM Gov are involved it's inevitable we will lose out. Its normally the way.

Listen, I'm sceptical. I will use City for weekend in the smoke and I will use Heathrow to connect to Europe or further afield on a single ticket with BA, I know that.

But I, you and others can see the data. We know what these routes can do pre-COVID. It looks and feels a lot like what Loganair did in Newquay, Carlisle and Teeside i.e present figures they feel are achievable, get the underwrite and naturally hit nowhere near the figures and pull the plug when the money is gone. It's rinse and repeat. But let's see. No doubt if it doesn't succeed, Greenhow and DOI will fudge it and never accept Governments ineptness.

[ellanvannin2010]

15 minutes ago, NoTailT said:

To be fair I always used to opt for LCY when I was staying in London.

What concerns me here is that pre-pandemic when the route was subsidised by £1.2m/Yr the loads were average, on a 50 seat aircraft. Now we have a 70 seat aircraft being underwritten. I'm afraid the writing is on the wall.

.

You may know otherwise but I thought the private underwriting was only for the initial 12 months  and had finished years ago

4 hours ago, Roger Mexico said:

The usual reminder that easyJet started serving the Isle of Man before the runway extension opened.  Their presence was only ever used to justify it after the event, but it wasn't really necessary.  

Wasn't the excuse/business case that the rules were changing and if it was not done then the world would end or we could only operate small regional aircraft in future

[NoTailT]

1 minute ago, ellanvannin2010 said:

You may know otherwise but I thought the private underwriting was only for the initial 12 months  and had finished years ago

Wasn't the excuse/business case that the rules were changing and if it was not done then the world would end or we could only operate small regional aircraft in future

It went on for a number of years, stopped for a while and was then resupported by the private sector, right up until COVID.

[IOM]

13 minutes ago, NoTailT said:

Let's be honest, if IOM Gov are involved it's inevitable we will lose out. Its normally the way.

Listen, I'm sceptical. I will use City for weekend in the smoke and I will use Heathrow to connect to Europe or further afield on a single ticket with BA, I know that.

But I, you and others can see the data. We know what these routes can do pre-COVID. It looks and feels a lot like what Loganair did in Newquay, Carlisle and Teeside i.e present figures they feel are achievable, get the underwrite and naturally hit nowhere near the figures and pull the plug when the money is gone. It's rinse and repeat. But let's see. No doubt if it doesn't succeed, Greenhow and DOI will fudge it and never accept Governments ineptness.

So what do you propose as the alternative? Leave it in the hands of EasyJet get flights at random times whenever they can fit the Isle of Man into their schedule?  Genuinely curious what you and all those who constantly sing the virtues of EasyJet as the answer would do . 
 

And for the record once again because I know there are plenty who would say I am an EasyJet basher I have consistently said there is a role for them .