Airport.

[asitis]

41 minutes ago, 2112 said:

Rob Callister MHK Onchan, on the NPM this morning  gets first prize for stating the obvious about the airport, both they have few air traffic controllers and the airport is in a sorry mess.

Oh he forgot to add it has cost 100 million to get it in a sorry mess !

[Ringy Rose]

7 minutes ago, asitis said:

you can bet they would be salivating at the chance to splurge the cash

I was more thinking that if it cost City £20m we'd end up paying £40m...

[NoTailT]

31 minutes ago, Ringy Rose said:

I was more thinking that if it cost City £20m we'd end up paying £40m...

Probably.

But to be fair, London City has very difficult issues to deal with which IOM doesn't.

The tower is low, the airport is surrounded by buildings both residential, office and nearby Excel and Canary Wharf.

I'm not sure IOM Airport has the same challenges or cost implications.

[Andy Onchan]

1 hour ago, Ringy Rose said:

It cost London City Airport more than £20m to install their remote ATC.

It'd help, but I'm not sure it's a £20m problem.

We're not LCY with anywhere near the number of flights to control. On the other hand only a gold plated, all-singing-all-dancing. dog's bollox system will be good enough the DOI lot, so it probably would cost £20m.

There has to be a way around this problem, not just for the short but long term as well. We definitely need to look at what options are available to us, technology is changing all the time.

[gerremonside]

1 hour ago, 2112 said:

 

The DOI could meanwhile get specialised qualified ATC staff from a UK agency for a fixed period or try an recruit new permanent from the UK or overseas. 

 

Sadly it's not quite so easy. Even if there was the the political will or management impetus to bring in agency staff, any controller brought in who had all the necessary qualifications to control the type of traffic the Isle of Man handles, (which means aerodrome approach and approach radar qualifications) would need to validate locally to operate solo and start to  ease the problem. This validation process would take an absolute minimum of six months. 

The big issue here is is that air traffic control qualification takes a long time. For each of the above qualifications to go from untrained to fully trained is around a year each, so around 3 years to train each fully qualified controller. 

When the VAT bombshell hit around 15 years ago, and government departments were asked to make savings, one of the the first things airport management did to try to do so so was enforce a policy of non replacement of staff in air traffic control when they retired or moved. So for many years there was no recruitment or replacement of ATC staff. This failed to take into account the lead in training time as stated above, and although it saved a hefty wadge of salary cash in the short term, it has had a direct effect on the crisis in staffing that is being seen today. 

This policy of non replacement was only reversed towards the end of the last decade, and as a result there are trainees in the system who cannot complete their validation because there simply wasn't sufficient traffic throughout the covid crisis to justify them having been adequately trained and tested. This has also been exacerbated by why some of the recruited trainees leaving post because of failure to progress. 

It's worth noting that the covid crisis has also masked the problem because the shortage existed pre COVID, and in fact when covid came along it was quite fortuitous as airport closures became commonplace which meant that the problem did not manifest until a full timetable was resumed recently.

To summarise, it is a perfect storm, one that could have been predicted and indeed was by members of the team who raised it with management as far back as 2006. But unfortunately short-term recruitment of agency staff would no more help,  than would getting through the trainees who are already  in the system. The team within air traffic control hot trying as hard as possible to get the trainees through in as quick time as possible commensurate with safety.

10 minutes ago, NoTailT said:

Probably.

But to be fair, London City has very difficult issues to deal with which IOM doesn't.

The tower is low, the airport is surrounded by buildings both residential, office and nearby Excel and Canary Wharf.

I'm not sure IOM Airport has the same challenges or cost implications.

But also to be fair are the Isle of Man does have other issues to deal with the London city doesn't. Ronaldsway provides own approach control and approach radar control service. At London City these are provided by the swanwick control centre in Hampshire. 

Also, operating ronaldsway as a remote tower project would take many lead in years of infrastructure procurement, purchase and set up,  and also significant regulatory approval. Regulatory approval has after a long time been granted for London City but if the remote facility were to fail it would be easy to quickly repopulate the on-site tower - I am sure this has been a significant condition of the approval. No such easy contingency will be available if Ronaldsway were to go to remote tower operation as presumably the controllers would by definition be across the water. Cost would not really be the barrier, satisfying the regulator that it was a safe practice would be a far greater issue. Also the issue of outsourcing of approach and radar services to another agency would be necessary. 

[0bserver]

2 minutes ago, gerremonside said:

Sadly it's not quite so easy. Even if there was the the political will or management impetus to bring in agency staff, any controller brought in who had all the necessary qualifications to control the type of traffic the Isle of Man handles, (which means aerodrome approach and approach radar qualifications) would need to validate locally to operate solo and start to  ease the problem. This validation process would take an absolute minimum of six months. 

The big issue here is is that air traffic control qualification takes a long time. For each of the above qualifications to go from untrained to fully trained is around a year each, so around 3 years to train each fully qualified controller. 

When the VAT bombshell hit around 15 years ago, and government departments were asked to make savings, one of the the first things airport management did to try to do so so was enforce a policy of non replacement of staff in air traffic control when they retired or moved. So for many years there was no recruitment or replacement of ATC staff. This failed to take into account the lead in training time as stated above, and although it saved a hefty wadge of salary cash in the short term, it has had a direct effect on the crisis in staffing that is being seen today. 

This policy of non replacement was only reversed towards the end of the last decade, and as a result there are trainees in the system who cannot complete their validation because there simply wasn't sufficient traffic throughout the covid crisis to justify them having been adequately trained and tested. This has also been exacerbated by why some of the recruited trainees leaving post because of failure to progress. 

It's worth noting that the covid crisis has also masked the problem because the shortage existed pre COVID, and in fact when covid came along it was quite fortuitous as airport closures became commonplace which meant that the problem did not manifest until a full timetable was resumed recently.

To summarise, it is a perfect storm, one that could have been predicted and indeed was by members of the team who raised it with management as far back as 2006. But unfortunately short-term recruitment of agency staff would no more help,  than would getting through the trainees who are already  in the system. The team within air traffic control hot trying as hard as possible to get the trainees through in as quick time as possible commensurate with safety.

But also to be fair are the Isle of Man does have other issues to deal with the London city doesn't. Ronaldsway provides own approach control and approach radar control service. At London City these are provided by the swanwick control centre in Hampshire. 

Also, operating ronaldsway as a remote tower project would take many lead in years of infrastructure procurement, purchase and set up,  and also significant regulatory approval. Regulatory approval has after a long time been granted for London City but if the remote facility were to fail it would be easy to quickly repopulate the on-site tower - I am sure this has been a significant condition of the approval. No such easy contingency will be available if Ronaldsway were to go to remote tower operation as presumably the controllers would by definition be across the water. Cost would not really be the barrier, satisfying the regulator that it was a safe practice would be a far greater issue. Also the issue of outsourcing of approach and radar services to another agency would be necessary. 

Please don't let common sense and facts get in the way of this.

[Len Trench]

I’ve said it before - where is the chief exec? 

[Guest]

With a bit of focused attention, and obviously some more ATCOs, the airport is more than capable of coping with the current and future passenger numbers; after all, we are only talking about up to one million passengers per annum.  It just needs a more proactive management to effectively oversee the daily operations and future planning requirements at the airport.

[asitis]

41 minutes ago, Cypman said:

the current and future passenger numbers; after all, we are only talking about up to one million passengers per annum.

Sorry to repeat myself ad nauseam , but we were gearing up for 2.5 million passengers per annum ! or was that bullshit too !

[0bserver]

54 minutes ago, Len Trench said:

I’ve said it before - where is the chief exec? 

On a beach in Antigua enjoying their gold-plated pension.

[2112]

22 minutes ago, asitis said:

Sorry to repeat myself ad nauseam , but we were gearing up for 2.5 million passengers per annum ! or was that bullshit too !

99.9% of what is mentioned by Ministers and Department Members is undiluted bullshit.

Manx Radio and IOM Newspapers are used for IOMG propaganda, what they like to convey to the masses, or to manipulate the news agenda. A good news story - for example, if FCIOM win their promotion play off, IOMG will go into bullshit overload, and any bad news will be buried. That’s what a team of press officers are paid for, spread the bullshit to the masses and worldwide too. 

[Nellie]

51 minutes ago, 0bserver said:

On a beach in Antigua enjoying their gold-plated pension.

He's actually driving buses, on a casual basis. No offence to bus drivers, but it seems he's found his level. 

[Happier diner]

1 hour ago, Len Trench said:

I’ve said it before - where is the chief exec? 

There is an acting CEO isn't there?

[Numbnuts]

38 minutes ago, Happier diner said:

There is an acting CEO isn't there?

Yes Emily Curphey . Interestingly she is not shown present at the last two recorded meetings of the My Prom management team. 

Edited April 12, 2022 by Numbnuts

[NoTailT]

18 minutes ago, Numbnuts said:

Yes Emily Curphey . Interestingly she is not shown present at the last two recorded meetings of the My Prom management team. 

How many Gov departments are currently without a properly functioning CEO? I count at least 2, possibly 3.