Airport.

[gerremonside]

2 hours ago, NoTailT said:

Well that's not quite the same comparison.

If the shopkeeper had a published fee schedule that says "hey I'll stay open another 90 mins you just gotta pay for it", I'm prepared to pay for it but your staff can't work anymore hours.. that's basically what is being said by Gov here.

We should be able to extend to 11pm, but on 'this' occasion (which happens all the time) we can't staff it and it impacted Loganair City flight too. Let's also not forget that the DOI created a policy of extended opening to 930pm during summer in order to facilitate an extra Gatwick, because they wanted it.

I'm not saying easyjet shouldn't do more, they should, it's a mess and we don't want to take any responsibility, rather put the burden of liability elsewhere. But we either say for the rest of the summer we won't offer any extended opening and then carriers can plan accordingly or we get our shit together.

930pm closing is silly in itself, we should be offering permanent opening till at least 10pm. Schedulers could probably give us an extra sector every day if they did that.

Unfortunately, it's never as easy as it appears. There are a few obstacles to what is proposed in the above and other posts on here. 

While it may be possible to permanently extend operational hours, it would, depending on the agreed time, require a 3 shift system rather than the 2 which is currently in operation. This would require a further 3-4 controllers in ATC to run that watch system. 

The current operational team is 30% below the required complement to operate normally even now with the 2 shift system. This is due to a previous freeze on recruitment when staff retired or resigned, dating back to the VAT bombshell.

So to achieve a 3 shift system would, (if 3 fully qualified ATC controllers with appropriate qualifications could be recruited here and now today) take a minimum of 18 months to achieve, given joining and training time. This also assumes that the current staffing issues, which are not insignificant,  could be resolved, and that there are no retirements or resignations (at least one will happen within the year). 

The previous airport administration did have an intention to move toward increased staffing to support such an initiative around 3-4 years ago, but unfortunately this was totally at odds with a previous reluctance to recruit, which has directly resulted in the current crisis. 

 

Edited July 11, 2022 by gerremonside

[0bserver]

1 hour ago, Amadeus said:

Too cheap! You have to pay £350 for one to get the full Man Airlines experience. 

Anyway, made it. 40 hour, three flights and a bus trip that could have gone a lot smoother. Air travel in general seems so screwed these days. 

They tasted better when they were free with the £350 ticket. 

[Utah 01]

1 hour ago, 0bserver said:

They tasted better when they were free with the £350 ticket. 

...........along with the afternoon cream tea.

[gerremonside]

While the  staff at the airport often come in for a bashing, it's worth using last night's Gatwick flight as an example of what happens so often. 

If you have the capability search Flightradar 24: https://www.flightradar24.com/ 
for G-EZUI which operated the flight.

Arrived in LGW at 1948 (33 min after it SHOULD have departed for IOM) due delays earlier in the day. 

 

It took until 2139 before it departed LGW for IOM, arriving here at 2227.
 

The IOM teams managed to turn it round and get it airborne at 2303 (which means the airport will have closed at 2318 due to requirement to stay 15 min in case of diversion) . This will require the controllers to submit an excess of hours form to the IOM CAA because they went over the maximum 10 hour shift length. They will have felt justified in doing so provided they weren't overly fatigued and hopefully will not be reprimanded by airport management of the IOM CAA.

 

They were however, as almost always flexible enough to get people home, and off island in return.  This has become the norm, and the expectation of both the employers (Government and the private sector who employ the handlers) and the travelling public. It's worth noting that they do get paid overtime for excess hours, but at a rate less than actual normal hours (normal hour rate at weekends) . 

 

And of course the notice given to work that excess time is invariably virtually none, although with EasyJet's schedule and punctuality, the teams have come to know that it will be expected without question every night of the week. 

[madmanxpilot]

13 hours ago, IOM said:

I like the idea of a night stopper BACF but am not sure how it would work . The flight would presumably leave early so be back on island around 9-10am what do you do with the aircraft for the rest of the day ? Unless you propose only one rotation a day with early morning off island and evening return ? 

To night stop an aircraft with one crew, there must be 11 hours between the time the brakes are finally set to park on arrival until the crew report for duty the following morning. So, if it parks at 9pm, the earliest the crew can report for duty would be 8am the following morning, meaning a 9am departure. It’s not very efficient usage of the airframe and comes with additional costs of hotel accommodation, crew transport and duty pay.

I can’t see this whole mess resolving itself until next spring when the whole industry has had the time to re-establish itself to pre pandemic levels of staffing. The quieter winter period will give a bit of breathing room for this to happen - hopefully.

However, even when that happens, we will still be faced with the vulnerability of having timetables that are built to best suit the airlines rather than ourselves, and an airport that relies on good weather to keep things moving.

Listening to Chris Thomas on Manx Radio this morning, it sounds like he knows what the issues are. I just hope he is getting the correct information from those currently running things at Ronaldsway, and that he has the determination to finally do something about sorting it out properly.
 

 

[IOM]

10 minutes ago, gerremonside said:

While the  staff at the airport often come in for a bashing, it's worth using last night's Gatwick flight as an example of what happens so often. 

If you have the capability search Flightradar 24: https://www.flightradar24.com/ 
for G-EZUI which operated the flight.

Arrived in LGW at 1948 (33 min after it SHOULD have departed for IOM) due delays earlier in the day. 

 

It took until 2139 before it departed LGW for IOM, arriving here at 2227.
 

The IOM teams managed to turn it round and get it airborne at 2303 (which means the airport will have closed at 2318 due to requirement to stay 15 min in case of diversion) . This will require the controllers to submit an excess of hours form to the IOM CAA because they went over the maximum 10 hour shift length. They will have felt justified in doing so provided they weren't overly fatigued and hopefully will not be reprimanded by airport management of the IOM CAA.

 

They were however, as almost always flexible enough to get people home, and off island in return.  This has become the norm, and the expectation of both the employers (Government and the private sector who employ the handlers) and the travelling public. It's worth noting that they do get paid overtime for excess hours, but at a rate less than actual normal hours (normal hour rate at weekends) . 

 

And of course the notice given to work that excess time is invariably virtually none, although with EasyJet's schedule and punctuality, the teams have come to know that it will be expected without question every night of the week. 

I think this is exactly why it’s wrong to always give the people at the airport a bashing . A lot of people will have gone out of their way to make this happen and as you suggest I suspect it happens quite a lot . 
 

The fundamental issue is the timing of the flight , EasyJet know full well they may pick up delays during the delay and risk the airport closing but they just think they can do whatever they like and people will just fall into line . 
 

I think those that put themselves out including ground staff and ATC should be thanked here for what they do not told on forums that “it’s not me guv “ like some posters do ! 

[Lxxx]

3 hours ago, IOM said:

I think this is exactly why it’s wrong to always give the people at the airport a bashing . A lot of people will have gone out of their way to make this happen and as you suggest I suspect it happens quite a lot . 
 

The fundamental issue is the timing of the flight , EasyJet know full well they may pick up delays during the delay and risk the airport closing but they just think they can do whatever they like and people will just fall into line . 
 

I think those that put themselves out including ground staff and ATC should be thanked here for what they do not told on forums that “it’s not me guv “ like some posters do ! 

Six of one half a dozen of the other in reality. The airport decision makers have shown for years their lack of flexibility and know how in how to handle an airport in today's environment. Of course to Easyjet the IoM is the lowest of low priorities so we rank down that list in terms of consideration.

It's getting so bad that we are considering moving off island now. Connectivity for work for me is key and I have no idea what state the airport is going to be in from day to day at the moment. 

[Manxweegie]

Just had a client of ours cancel a vessels crew change on the Isle of Man due to the uncertainty of flights.

[snowman]

Root cause for many of the current issues is lack of staff

[snowman]

Just had a bunch of schedule change notifications from Loganair 

[cheesypeas]

8 hours ago, Lxxx said:

Six of one half a dozen of the other in reality. The airport decision makers have shown for years their lack of flexibility and know how in how to handle an airport in today's environment. Of course to Easyjet the IoM is the lowest of low priorities so we rank down that list in terms of consideration.

It's getting so bad that we are considering moving off island now. Connectivity for work for me is key and I have no idea what state the airport is going to be in from day to day at the moment. 

We have an airport that closes before most 12 year olds go to bed. It’s not really easyjet’s fault. 

[IOM]

16 minutes ago, cheesypeas said:

We have an airport that closes before most 12 year olds go to bed. It’s not really easyjet’s fault. 

You can debate the rights and wrongs of the airport opening hours some other posters have clearly explained why it’s not that easy to extend them on a permanent basis . Given so few flights why open for such long hours anyway. I am sorry EasyJet are made aware of the opening hours of the airport and they schedule right against the limit . So in my view they are culpable . And those passengers who complained on Sunday that they were left stranded when the Gatwick flight had to abort take off should be talking to EasyJet too the airline is responsible for the passengers  in that situation. 

[Numbnuts]

31 minutes ago, cheesypeas said:

We have an airport that closes before most 12 year olds go to bed. It’s not really easyjet’s fault. 

I disagree tbh. As figures show ATC at the airport for the most part have been bending over backwards to try and facilitate Easyjets schedule but if they are on time then theres not a problem. They are operationally trying to fit too many flights into their timetable. Once a delay happens , and it does , that means if falls back onto our ATC. If those figures of how many times they have kept the airport open are true then thats just not right or fair. If you go into work a shift and are supposed to finish at 9 30 pm then within reason that should be the time you walk out the door. Easyjet know the parameters and there the ones that need to sort out there scheduling. I get there trying to get the most they can out of crew and planes but its not all about them. I say respect to the ATC at the airport for even trying to help passengers.

Edited July 12, 2022 by Numbnuts

[cheesypeas]

19 minutes ago, Numbnuts said:

I disagree tbh. As figures show ATC at the airport for the most part have been bending over backwards to try and facilitate Easyjets schedule but if they are on time then theres not a problem. They are operationally trying to fit too many flights into their timetable. Once a delay happens , and it does , that means if falls back onto our ATC. If those figures of how many times they have kept the airport open are true then thats just not right or fair. If you go into work a shift and are supposed to finish at 9 30 pm then within reason that should be the time you walk out the door. Easyjet know the parameters and there the ones that need to sort out there scheduling. I get there trying to get the most they can out of crew and planes but its not all about them. I say respect to the ATC at the airport for even trying to help passengers.

Perhaps they should just pull the late flight then. At least we would all know it means boat and train. Having tried to navigate U.K. airports in the last week, you’re lucky to get to the gate on time anyhow. 

 

[NoTailT]

43 minutes ago, cheesypeas said:

Perhaps they should just pull the late flight then. At least we would all know it means boat and train. Having tried to navigate U.K. airports in the last week, you’re lucky to get to the gate on time anyhow. 

 

A guy I know over here on 'business'.

Had easy tonight and City tomorrow AM both booked and zero confidence in either of them actually going to get back home. Silly world.

Edited July 12, 2022 by NoTailT