Airport.

[Roger Mexico]

5 minutes ago, Boo Gay'n said:

Turning over a fire tender in 2011 because it was being driven too quickly?  Didn't some piece of kit end up in the sea as well?

I was thinking of the snow, rather than the incompetence.

[Turtleish]

1 hour ago, Roger Mexico said:

 

 

[1]  The one at Moscow being caused by a drunken snowplough driver must be the most Russian thing ever.  You'd like to assume that nothing similar could happen here, but none of us would be surprised to find Reynolds had purchased a fleet of snowploughs for Ronaldsway and a commissioned a multi-million pound building to house them.

Reminds me of my mate Phil, who was working at Gatwick one Sunday, after a sesh, still gurning on mdma. Crashed his stairs into a plane , made the front page of the daily star. He left England very soon after. 🤣

[BriT]

23 hours ago, dreamon said:

What a shambles!

The whole airport is an embarrassment. Even the basic costs and services. I went to London the other week and a coffee in Pret at London City airport is £3.55. A coffee at Costa in departures in the IOM is £4.05 and that’s if the bored, hopeless, staff finally get round to serving you before your plane takes off. The outside cafe at Ronaldsway is even worse. They’ve been recruiting for staff for months and yet clearly have none. They might as well install a vending machine. Plus we seem to have security staff obsessed with shoes. I’ve never been asked to take off a pair of trainers anywhere else in the UK. Here it’s every time you go through as you get the impression they’re bored and just looking for stuff to do. 

[Mercenary]

2 hours ago, BriT said:

The whole airport is an embarrassment. Even the basic costs and services. I went to London the other week and a coffee in Pret at London City airport is £3.55. A coffee at Costa in departures in the IOM is £4.05 and that’s if the bored, hopeless, staff finally get round to serving you before your plane takes off. The outside cafe at Ronaldsway is even worse. They’ve been recruiting for staff for months and yet clearly have none. They might as well install a vending machine. Plus we seem to have security staff obsessed with shoes. I’ve never been asked to take off a pair of trainers anywhere else in the UK. Here it’s every time you go through as you get the impression they’re bored and just looking for stuff to do. 

There are a few Costas on the Island that seem to be in a competition for the slowest service. Maybe queuing is fashionable and drives greater sales in a roundabout way.

 

And as for the landside café and Smith's - this seems like something noone actually wants to run or use with contracts predicated on pre-COVID numbers of fliers, but is just something that has been opened back up to keep the banalities of Mr Moorhouse prodding Tynwald Questions at bay.

[BriT]

21 minutes ago, Mercenary said:

There are a few Costas on the Island that seem to be in a competition for the slowest service. Maybe queuing is fashionable and drives greater sales in a roundabout way.

I agree but the one in departures literally plumbs the depths of appalling. I’ve never waited less than about 15 minutes for a coffee and if you’re on the red-eye half the time you’re waiting for them to open at 6AM on top. If they didn’t have a captive audience nobody would bother putting themselves through such a thoroughly depressing and shit customer service experience. 

[Gladys]

1 hour ago, Mercenary said:

There are a few Costas on the Island that seem to be in a competition for the slowest service. Maybe queuing is fashionable and drives greater sales in a roundabout way.

 

And as for the landside café and Smith's - this seems like something noone actually wants to run or use with contracts predicated on pre-COVID numbers of fliers, but is just something that has been opened back up to keep the banalities of Mr Moorhouse prodding Tynwald Questions at bay.

Tbh, is a landside cafe really needed?  Gone are the days when people used to toddle down to the airport to watch planes come and go.  It was a thing when I was a child, but it was different then, we thought air travel was glamorous. 

[Asthehills]

10 hours ago, BriT said:

The whole airport is an embarrassment. Even the basic costs and services. I went to London the other week and a coffee in Pret at London City airport is £3.55. A coffee at Costa in departures in the IOM is £4.05 and that’s if the bored, hopeless, staff finally get round to serving you before your plane takes off. The outside cafe at Ronaldsway is even worse. They’ve been recruiting for staff for months and yet clearly have none. They might as well install a vending machine. Plus we seem to have security staff obsessed with shoes. I’ve never been asked to take off a pair of trainers anywhere else in the UK. Here it’s every time you go through as you get the impression they’re bored and just looking for stuff to do. 

There is no need for a landslide cafe, and I do r get the obsession with having. Coffee before your flight. A vending machine in there would be more than sufficient (as long as it did beer) and would free up more space.

More importantly, what sort of trainers are you wearing that they ask you to take them off?  I don’t think I have ever been asked to remove trainers or shoes at Ronaldsway.

[Kipper99]

Mr Pugh ATC

Perhaps an FoI request.

1. How many ATC at Ronaldsway, and at what level, are ex military

2. Is it necessary for ex military ATC to undertake a conversion course/training to work as a licensed civilian ATC at Ronaldsway ( or any civilain airport)  if they have not previously worked in another civilian airport ATC after being military ATC

3. What components does the conversion include, over what time. Include things like being civilian licensed, getting experience in approach control and/or radar

4. Are there any ex military ATC at Ronaldsway who have not undertaken the conversion course/training or are not licensed as civilian ATCO or have not been validated for approach control and/or radar

5. Why

6 is this safe

7. Is it CAA compliant

[Guest]

Kipper99, just to put your mind at rest, all Civil (CAA) ATCOs, whether they be ex-military or not, are trained and qualified to the same exacting standards.  Ex-military controllers cannot just go to work at a commercial airfield without completing full CAA training.  This does not detract from the fact that there are many extremely competent ex-military ATCOs employed at commercial airports.

[Guest]

Just to add a bit of historical information to the ex-military to civil ATCO path.  Historically, it has always been difficult for military ATCOs to retrain and re-qualify as civil ATCOs, training courses were very expensive and few and far between.  Nonetheless, many military controllers who had completed their, often short, career paths in the military, spent their gratuities and/or savings on the crossover training.  Indeed, back in the 1980s and 1990s, when we still had many military airfields, there were a considerable number of ex-military controllers who crossed over each year.

More recently, with the huge reduction in the military infrastructure and personnel numbers, added to a reduction in available re-training opportunities, this flow has hugely reduced.  Indeed, many would say that this state of affairs has had a considerable impact on the current Civil ATCO shortage being experienced throughout the UK.

Filling the shortfall is not going to be easy.

[Kipper99]

26 minutes ago, Cypman said:

Kipper99, just to put your mind at rest, all Civil (CAA) ATCOs, whether they be ex-military or not, are trained and qualified to the same exacting standards.  Ex-military controllers cannot just go to work at a commercial airfield without completing full CAA training.  This does not detract from the fact that there are many extremely competent ex-military ATCOs employed at commercial airports.

You’ve missed the point.

My information is that an honest reply to that FOI would be illuminating.

Theres possibly a difference between should and reality.

[Utah 01]

You're flogging a dead horse.

Read and inwardly digest Cypman's comprehensive and accurate reply.

[madmanxpilot]

1 hour ago, Cypman said:

Just to add a bit of historical information to the ex-military to civil ATCO path.  Historically, it has always been difficult for military ATCOs to retrain and re-qualify as civil ATCOs, training courses were very expensive and few and far between.  Nonetheless, many military controllers who had completed their, often short, career paths in the military, spent their gratuities and/or savings on the crossover training.  Indeed, back in the 1980s and 1990s, when we still had many military airfields, there were a considerable number of ex-military controllers who crossed over each year.

More recently, with the huge reduction in the military infrastructure and personnel numbers, added to a reduction in available re-training opportunities, this flow has hugely reduced.  Indeed, many would say that this state of affairs has had a considerable impact on the current Civil ATCO shortage being experienced throughout the UK.

Filling the shortfall is not going to be easy.

I think the issue is not about the ability to be an ATCO but a lack of understanding of technical aspects of what is needed to get planes operating in all weathers., and how pilots get the job done on such days.

There have  been erroneous edicts issued regarding approach bans, take off minima and evident misconceptions about the effect that categories of airfield lighting have on approach minima. For example, the head of ATC wanted to ban planes from making approaches in low cloud conditions, this when the only factor that can generate an approach ban is reported visibility. Also, he wanted to ban planes from taking off in low visibility, but pilots are legally allowed to assess take of visibility themselves once lined up on the runway.

The job can be tough enough getting into the IOM with the low standard of airfield lighting without someone making up rules based on what they think rather than on the actual rules of the air.
 

The runway 21 issue seems to have been akin to finding a small leak from a plug in the bath and pulling it out to fix it when the bath is full without having a spare plug  at hand.

The small leak wasn’t really a problem in the first place.

 

Edited November 4, 2022 by madmanxpilot

[Kipper99]

1 hour ago, Utah 01 said:

You're flogging a dead horse.

Read and inwardly digest Cypman's comprehensive and accurate reply.

I don’t think there’s any difference between my understanding and that of Cypman as to what should happen on transition between Military and Civil ATC.

The suggested FOI wording is to winkle out whether it’s been complied with, in particular local validation to ensure that issues highlighted by madmanxpilot and others shouldn’t arise.

[Roger Mexico]

2 hours ago, Cypman said:

Kipper99, just to put your mind at rest, all Civil (CAA) ATCOs, whether they be ex-military or not, are trained and qualified to the same exacting standards.  Ex-military controllers cannot just go to work at a commercial airfield without completing full CAA training.  This does not detract from the fact that there are many extremely competent ex-military ATCOs employed at commercial airports.

That wasn't quite my original point, which wasn't about Pugh's competence as an ATC.  Though his Linkedin doesn't mention any post-Navy CAA training, he may have done so during his service.  My point was that, with never had the experience of working at a civilian airport, the way that those operate would be unfamiliar to him and of course the management when and since he arrived in 2019 wouldn't exactly provide much in the way of guidance to ease him in.

Edited November 4, 2022 by Roger Mexico
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