Airport.

[Roxanne]

5 hours ago, Roger Mexico said:

It shows how toxic the DHSC environment is that they couldn't even cope with the political equivalent of a Labrador puppy

And yet they coped with two previous ministers both of whom have plenty to say and aren’t afraid to say it. The report even said that during the previous tenure of Hooper that there were no issues and that both parties treated the other with respect.  I’m aware of the toxicity of the CS but there’s also a far simpler answer to this and one you don’t seem able or willing to see. As previous, I think we’re going to have to agree to disagree on this one. 

[John Wright]

It’s not just the low visibility landing resilience, it’s staffing resilience for essential services.

That ranges from ATC to baggage handling and PRM assistance.

I arrived back on Island at 14.00 from LGW. It took 40 minutes to get the ambulift to the plane.

There had been speculation that the plane wouldn’t leave London due to low visibility, but it did. We arrived in sunshine.

Crew were clearly fed up. They were on leg one of a LGW - IoM - LGW - BCN - LGW double rotation.

Then no taxis. Had to phone Telecabs to pick me up.

But Gatwick has its problems. The PRM handler insisted the chair batteries had to be removed. I carry a letter from his senior manager and easyJet saying not necessary, just isolated. It’s happened before!

Isolated batteries. Put chair in its protective carry bag.

Arrived to find protective carry bag removed. Chair wouldn’t start. Someone had detached the connector leads from each battery and from the joystick to the controller box.

[asitis]

25 minutes ago, madmanxpilot said:

Well said. However, whilst what you describe is an ideal situation, we don’t actually need the Airport Management to understand fully the complexities of low visibility approach aids and the best way to move forward in that regard. We just need them to accept that they don’t know everything about the subject, it is after all fairly complex, and that they should consult with those that do so that improvements can be made that will make a real difference rather than see precious resources continually wasted on pointless vanity projects.

 

 

Agreed, but would help if they had some knowledge to relay to the public / taxpayers. For instance the Malaga flight shambles, they didn't even try on Saturday, where most who did landed. Yesterday knowing what the WX was like they turned up, held for 55 mins then went back to LCY. Surely you would wait for the metar at 20 rather than clear off at 11.10, the point being the 20 metar showed marked improvement. My point is that flight could have got in with a little more conviction and the public should be aware of that and the lack of planning by the crew.

My info supplied by a raging airline captain, not speculation.

[madmanxpilot]

7 minutes ago, John Wright said:

It’s not just the low visibility landing resilience, it’s staffing resilience for essential services.

That ranges from ATC to baggage handling and PRM assistance.

I arrived back on Island at 14.00 from LGW. It took 40 minutes to get the ambulift to the plane.

There had been speculation that the plane wouldn’t leave London due to low visibility, but it did. We arrived in sunshine.

Crew were clearly fed up. They were on leg one of a LGW - IoM - LGW - BCN - LGW double rotation.

Then no taxis. Had to phone Telecabs to pick me up.

But Gatwick has its problems. The PRM handler insisted the chair batteries had to be removed. I carry a letter from his senior manager and easyJet saying not necessary, just isolated. It’s happened before!

Isolated batteries. Put chair in its protective carry bag.

Arrived to find protective carry bag removed. Chair wouldn’t start. Someone had detached the connector leads from each battery and from the joystick to the controller box.

Agree wholeheartedly- however those issues do not really need specialist knowledge to rectify, so there really is no excuse!

 

[madmanxpilot]

1 hour ago, asitis said:

Agreed, but would help if they had some knowledge to relay to the public / taxpayers. For instance the Malaga flight shambles, they didn't even try on Saturday, where most who did landed. Yesterday knowing what the WX was like they turned up, held for 55 mins then went back to LCY. Surely you would wait for the metar at 20 rather than clear off at 11.10, the point being the 20 metar showed marked improvement. My point is that flight could have got in with a little more conviction and the public should be aware of that and the lack of planning by the crew.

My info supplied by a raging airline captain, not speculation.

Yeah, I know who you are talking about, I worked worked with him for years at Manx and Flybe. Tell him if you see him before I do that he should know better than to make travel plans involving Ronaldsway at this time of year 😉

Regarding the Malaga flight - I wouldn’t necessarily blame the crew, we don’t know how much fuel they had on board, perhaps they just couldn’t hold for any longer. The other thing is, you don’t have to wait for the metar, you can ask ATC to ask the Met Office for an update at anytime, so maybe that’s what they did immediately prior to diverting.

 

Edited May 1, 2023 by madmanxpilot

[Mercenary]

2 hours ago, John Wright said:

It’s not just the low visibility landing resilience, it’s staffing resilience for essential services.

That ranges from ATC to baggage handling and PRM assistance.

I arrived back on Island at 14.00 from LGW. It took 40 minutes to get the ambulift to the plane.

There had been speculation that the plane wouldn’t leave London due to low visibility, but it did. We arrived in sunshine.

Crew were clearly fed up. They were on leg one of a LGW - IoM - LGW - BCN - LGW double rotation.

Then no taxis. Had to phone Telecabs to pick me up.

But Gatwick has its problems. The PRM handler insisted the chair batteries had to be removed. I carry a letter from his senior manager and easyJet saying not necessary, just isolated. It’s happened before!

Isolated batteries. Put chair in its protective carry bag.

Arrived to find protective carry bag removed. Chair wouldn’t start. Someone had detached the connector leads from each battery and from the joystick to the controller box.

The ambulift is a joke and easily adds 40 minutes on average to turnaround times of each flight it's used on and it often breaks - the whole situation must be unpleasant for passenger/crew/ground crew. This must cost Easyjet a fortune in operations (probably £500-1000 per flight before any knock-on disruption) and will no doubt make them question viability of running to IoM on congested timetables.

 

A new ambulift probably costs £100-150k.. this is surely one of them quick wins where a large overhaul is not needed and it could be resolved fairly swiftly.

 

[english zloty]

17 hours ago, Non-Believer said:

And yet the Honourable Court is now happy to nod through a £300M(?) proposal without any digging for detail, or indeed any real supply of detail as to what the spend is for, other than a misnamed "Flight Management System".

The system of Govt is increasingly appearing dysfunctional. Silos rule.

The thing is DOI was in part birthed from a Treasury cock-up at the airport. The political response was that Treasury would be little more than a bank and engineers would do stuff with more autonomy. The project management unit moved out of Treasury and all was well. 

But then the 'bank' started to limit withdrawals so DOI couldn't staff appropriately and eventually didn't have enough money to operate the basics (DOI and DEFA were forced into SAVE whilst the other Departments, including Treasury, just continued to spend and to grow. I would guess size for size DFE has wasted way more money. It's just that it's not high profile or visible. 

And now, less than ten years later. Govt is about to go full circle, moving projects back into Treasury because Alf was in Treasury and loves DFE. And so it will go.

The point is, I'm agreeing with you 😀 it doesn't matter what department is flavour of the month. It is the basic structure that it wrong and which leads to the cycle of scapegoating as a means of self-protection.

[NoTailT]

9 minutes ago, english zloty said:

The thing is DOI was in part birthed from a Treasury cock-up at the airport. The political response was that Treasury would be little more than a bank and engineers would do stuff with more autonomy. The project management unit moved out of Treasury and all was well. 

But then the 'bank' started to limit withdrawals so DOI couldn't staff appropriately and eventually didn't have enough money to operate the basics (DOI and DEFA were forced into SAVE whilst the other Departments, including Treasury, just continued to spend and to grow. I would guess size for size DFE has wasted way more money. It's just that it's not high profile or visible. 

And now, less than ten years later. Govt is about to go full circle, moving projects back into Treasury because Alf was in Treasury and loves DFE. And so it will go.

The point is, I'm agreeing with you 😀 it doesn't matter what department is flavour of the month. It is the basic structure that it wrong and which leads to the cycle of scapegoating as a means of self-protection.

Things don't go back in to Treasury. SAVE is what it is and yes Treasury will own/control whatever it decides to make 'arms length'.

Cabinet Office Special Projects team is where you need to look and be worried. CabO is getting bolstered all the time and increasingly more functions moving closer to the CM.

This was worse during Quayles tenure when he of course was also CabO Minister as well as CM.

Edited May 1, 2023 by NoTailT

[Nellie]

1 hour ago, Mercenary said:

The ambulift is a joke and easily adds 40 minutes on average to turnaround times of each flight it's used on and it often breaks - the whole situation must be unpleasant for passenger/crew/ground crew. This must cost Easyjet a fortune in operations (probably £500-1000 per flight before any knock-on disruption) and will no doubt make them question viability of running to IoM on congested timetables.

 

Whilst I agree that this type of situation must be irritating for easyJet, there is no evidence that the services are under any sort of threat. They have more flights scheduled for May and June than ever before, almost 350 in total. They are already the dominant carrier and must be aware that the competition, mainly Loganair, is the weakest, and least competitive, since they came here in 2010. They can easily stick a couple of quid on every ticket to recoup any additional costs of operating here. 

I am well aware that there are weaknesses in their schedule, and some routes are just operated with a bit of slack capacity here and there, but there are no indications that easyJet's overall commitment to the Island is wavering.

 

[NoTailT]

Is the Ambulift an Airport thing or a Menzies thing?

From what I understand: every passenger travelling through the airport is charged a PRM fee to the airline, as it's an equality matter. This is bundled with landing fees etc, so goes to the airport. This may just be for the processing of PRM's through the airport though, not sure if the ambulift?

My point being, the airport is collecting fees for PRM's so it should be investing in servicing them properly.

Edited May 1, 2023 by NoTailT

[John Wright]

12 minutes ago, NoTailT said:

Is the Ambulift an Airport thing or a Menzies thing?

From what I understand: every passenger travelling through the airport is charged a PRM fee to the airline, as it's an equality matter. This is bundled with landing fees etc, so goes to the airport. This may just be for the processing of PRM's through the airport though, not sure if the ambulift?

My point being, the airport is collecting fees for PRM's so it should be investing in servicing them properly.

In most other airports PRM is outsourced to a specialist company, other than the ground handling, contracted by the airport. Here Menzies do both.

There’s a constant tension between Menzies staff availability to get other passengers and bags on/off planes and to provide the PRM assistance. Add to that there’s a tension between DoI/Treasury and Menzies over capital expenditure.

The current ambulift ( which was working on Friday and Sunday  but not on 14/17 April ) can’t service Aer Lingus planes. It’s not old, 3 or 4 years at most. And I haven’t seen the ramp used at all for 12 months.

Add to that the issue ( I’m assuming, I don’t have the facts ) that the airport PRM throughput is possibly much higher as a percentage of total passengers due to population age profile and patient transfers out to and return from Liverpool/Manchester weekday mornings and evenings.

 

 

[NoTailT]

53 minutes ago, John Wright said:

In most other airports PRM is outsourced to a specialist company, other than the ground handling, contracted by the airport. Here Menzies do both.

There’s a constant tension between Menzies staff availability to get other passengers and bags on/off planes and to provide the PRM assistance. Add to that there’s a tension between DoI/Treasury and Menzies over capital expenditure.

The current ambulift ( which was working on Friday and Sunday  but not on 14/17 April ) can’t service Aer Lingus planes. It’s not old, 3 or 4 years at most. And I haven’t seen the ramp used at all for 12 months.

Add to that the issue ( I’m assuming, I don’t have the facts ) that the airport PRM throughput is possibly much higher as a percentage of total passengers due to population age profile and patient transfers out to and return from Liverpool/Manchester weekday mornings and evenings.

 

 

It sounds to me as though the PRM facility - esp given PTS - needs proper investment by DOI.

[forestboy]

52 minutes ago, John Wright said:

In most other airports PRM is outsourced to a specialist company, other than the ground handling, contracted by the airport. Here Menzies do both.

There’s a constant tension between Menzies staff availability to get other passengers and bags on/off planes and to provide the PRM assistance. Add to that there’s a tension between DoI/Treasury and Menzies over capital expenditure.

The current ambulift ( which was working on Friday and Sunday  but not on 14/17 April ) can’t service Aer Lingus planes. It’s not old, 3 or 4 years at most. And I haven’t seen the ramp used at all for 12 months.

Add to that the issue ( I’m assuming, I don’t have the facts ) that the airport PRM throughput is possibly much higher as a percentage of total passengers due to population age profile and patient transfers out to and return from Liverpool/Manchester weekday mornings and evenings.

 

It’s a pity one of our wealthy residents can’t donate a new ambulift 

[forestboy]

52 minutes ago, John Wright said:

In most other airports PRM is outsourced to a specialist company, other than the ground handling, contracted by the airport. Here Menzies do both.

There’s a constant tension between Menzies staff availability to get other passengers and bags on/off planes and to provide the PRM assistance. Add to that there’s a tension between DoI/Treasury and Menzies over capital expenditure.

The current ambulift ( which was working on Friday and Sunday  but not on 14/17 April ) can’t service Aer Lingus planes. It’s not old, 3 or 4 years at most. And I haven’t seen the ramp used at all for 12 months.

Add to that the issue ( I’m assuming, I don’t have the facts ) that the airport PRM throughput is possibly much higher as a percentage of total passengers due to population age profile and patient transfers out to and return from Liverpool/Manchester weekday mornings and evenings.

 

It’s a pity one of our wealthy residents can’t donate a new ambulift 

[forestboy]

54 minutes ago, John Wright said:

In most other airports PRM is outsourced to a specialist company, other than the ground handling, contracted by the airport. Here Menzies do both.

There’s a constant tension between Menzies staff availability to get other passengers and bags on/off planes and to provide the PRM assistance. Add to that there’s a tension between DoI/Treasury and Menzies over capital expenditure.

The current ambulift ( which was working on Friday and Sunday  but not on 14/17 April ) can’t service Aer Lingus planes. It’s not old, 3 or 4 years at most. And I haven’t seen the ramp used at all for 12 months.

Add to that the issue ( I’m assuming, I don’t have the facts ) that the airport PRM throughput is possibly much higher as a percentage of total passengers due to population age profile and patient transfers out to and return from Liverpool/Manchester weekday mornings and evenings.

 

It’s a pity one of our wealthy residents can’t donate a new ambulift