Airport.

[Major Rushen]

The Manx Airline Model worked well because it had almost a monopoly on all destinations (except BHD). Also had assisted overheads from its U.K. based model. Yes fares were high but there was far more business travel. Once Manx was sold to BA the new owners lost IOM focus and in came the competition Euromanx / Emerald which split the market. Business travel started to wane. Once ezyJet and Flybe arrived we end up were we are now. Euromanx died due to outside circumstances but Flybe and EZY would have wiped them out. 

[Ringy Rose]

1 hour ago, Nellie said:

Whilst I fully respect, and enjoy, the professional insight you bring to the forum and the debate, I simply can't agree that Loganair are anywhere near being up to the job of replacing easyJet.

The current setup with two planes and two rotations doesn’t have resilience, but with more rotations you get more aircraft and you’re then in the position of justifying a proper base here, maybe even an hanger, rather than just an outstation and leaving the planes parked overnight in the rain and cold.

EasyJet have stuff go tech all the time too, you just don’t hear about it. So do Emerald, who were using hired-in aircraft on today’s two Dublin rotations.

17 minutes ago, John Wright said:

But at a price. Squaring the circle of who is out there, and what they can realistically offer, and at what price, with the public demand for low price air travel is impossible.

EasyJet are usually no cheaper than Loganair if you take any sort of luggage. I still think Loganair would promote themselves better if they did follow the EasyJet route of charging baggage extra- especially as not everyone needs to take hold baggage for a night away- but I’m glad they don’t. People think Loganair are expensive when they’re not because they don’t do a low “fare” then charge you £30 for a hold bag and £20 for a cabin bag.

A big chunk of the ticket price is also the £40 airport fee and the £13 departure tax.

[Nellie]

9 minutes ago, John Wright said:

Squaring the circle of who is out there, and what they can realistically offer, and at what price, with the public demand for low price air travel is impossible.

That is the impossible conundrum.

The entire aviation world has been reinvented, and reconfigured, several times since the days of Manx Airlines. It is pointless to hark back to those days. Like the days of bucket and spade tourism, they have gone, forever.

What we need to find, is the best way of serving the Island within the current, and potential future shape, of the wider aviation industry. Trying to design an aviation model just for the needs of the IOM is not possible. Guernsey have demonstrated that.

However, while we try to square that circle, what the DoI, and IOM Airport, can do is make sure that they do all the things which are under their control, really well, to make every passenger experience as stress-free, seamless and pleasant as possible. Right now, that is more important than masterplans, retail expansion or car park revenues. 

[NoTailT]

1 hour ago, madmanxpilot said:

I honestly think that having greater frequency with smaller aircraft is the way to go. If Loganair had a larger fleet here, then perhaps a lot of the issues you describe would get better rather than worse, they may even be able to justify having a spare based here - who knows.

It used to work just fine in the Manx Airlines days.

The problems John describes with PRM assistance etc are an inevitable by product of having larger aircraft here and schedules which are designed without the best interest of the Island in mind.

I respect you a lot and your views but you're just wrong on this.

Let's remember the days of easyJet + Flybe. Flybe didn't go pop because it's IOM routes were losing money, they weren't.

They were flying 4x daily to Liverpool and 4x Daily to Manchester, despite easy as a competitor. Frequency and loco co-existed. The other benefit of course was that if there was an aircraft problem, with such frequencies, Flybe could sub in out of Manchester to fill the void.

Loganair does not have inbuilt resillience. Their spares are based at airports with few routes that impact us. They often come in from Londonderry or Humberside (or maybe it's Teeside, can't remember) with the E Jets to rescue schedules.

Loganair is very good at ensuring meal vouchers etc are dished out, great. But they are terrible at recovering schedules. Maybe their fleet expansion of ATRs will help with this, maybe it will not.

Edited May 1, 2023 by NoTailT

[english zloty]

Logan Air is completely shite at present. Folk are paying good money to sit around for 2-3 hours delay for 30/40 minute flights and the trend is reoccurring. Just look at tomorrow's schedules  flights are already showing 2 hour delays. 

[Mercenary]

easyJet have been great. They generally have excellent reliability and their price points have enabled residents much better access to the UK. They could not be the only air link for the Island but as part of the solution (particularly round volume) they are outstanding. The only negatives are around some of the slots - but obviously there are always various discussions behind the scenes and who knows what went into these.

Business has changed over the years. Obviously for frequent business flyers who are less price sensitive the decline in 'quality' (meals/baggage/space) is noticeable but that is not the deciding factor for most for a 1h flight.

No doubt many of the more affluent / carbon lobby would love to see the ladder pulled up and back to smaller planes & much more expensive prices removing the land bridge type connection easy offers. Then it's back to sail & rail across the UK for a large portion of price sensitive travellers (or easier, not bothering).

[Ringy Rose]

42 minutes ago, NoTailT said:

They were flying 4x daily to Liverpool and 4x Daily to Manchester, despite easy as a competitor. Frequency and loco co-existed. The other benefit of course was that if there was an aircraft problem, with such frequencies, Flybe could sub in out of Manchester to fill the void.

I think you’re looking at Flybe with rose-tinted glasses. The frequency was, in theory, better, but when flights weren’t full Flybe had a habit of cancelling to amalgamate two emptier flights together. 

Loganair’s issue is resilience. There isn’t any spare capacity- two planes, two rotations- so if a plane goes tech you wait for it to be fixed or for a spare to arrive. They’re actually pretty good at bringing in spares- flying an E145 from Aberdeen or Teesside can’t be cheap, but they do it anyway- but it does obviously take time.

Not many airlines have spare aircraft sitting around just in case. EasyJet don’t.  EasyJet can usually juggle things around if something goes tech at Gatwick, but a bit less so at Liverpool or Manchester. It depends on what goes tech, and when.

My experience of Flybe was more that there’d be a shrug if a plane went tech, and you’d be on your own.

As for prices, I genuinely don’t see much difference between EasyJet and Loganair, it’s just that EasyJet hide everything as “optional” extras. As above, I do think Loganair would do better from a marketing point of view if they followed that route, but I’m glad we don’t have them doing a Flybe. Flybe staff couldn’t hide their glee if your bag was 3mm bigger than their insane cabin bag size and they got to rinse you for £50. They made Ryanair or WizzAir look ethical.

I’m happy to see easyJet and Loganair co-exist though.

Edited May 1, 2023 by Ringy Rose

[IOM]

39 minutes ago, NoTailT said:

I respect you a lot and your views but you're just wrong on this.

Let's remember the days of easyJet + Flybe. Flybe didn't go pop because it's IOM routes were losing money, they weren't.

They were flying 4x daily to Liverpool and 4x Daily to Manchester, despite easy as a competitor. Frequency and loco co-existed. The other benefit of course was that if there was an aircraft problem, with such frequencies, Flybe could sub in out of Manchester to fill the void.

Loganair does not have inbuilt resillience. Their spares are based at airports with few routes that impact us. They often come in from Londonderry or Humberside (or maybe it's Teeside, can't remember) with the E Jets to rescue schedules.

Loganair is very good at ensuring meal vouchers etc are dished out, great. But they are terrible at recovering schedules. Maybe their fleet expansion of ATRs will help with this, maybe it will not.

You keep making the same point I get you don’t like Loganair but name a suitable alternative right now they are virtually the only option . And the less said about Flybe the better it was not that long ago you wanted Flybe Mark2 here thank goodness nobody took any notice of that suggestion! I know some posters like to assume I am all for Loganair I am not but unlike most I just don’t see any other viable alternative . 

[NoTailT]

5 minutes ago, Ringy Rose said:

I think you’re looking at Flybe with rose-tinted glasses. The frequency was, in theory, better, but when flights weren’t full Flybe had a habit of cancelling to amalgamate two emptier flights together. 

Loganair’s issue is resilience. There isn’t any spare capacity- two planes, two rotations- so if a plane goes tech you wait for it to be fixed or for a spare to arrive. They’re actually pretty good at bringing in spares- flying an E145 from Aberdeen or Teesside can’t be cheap, but they do it anyway- but it does obviously take time.

Not many airlines have spare aircraft sitting around just in case. EasyJet don’t.  EasyJet can usually juggle things around if something goes tech at Gatwick, but a bit less so at Liverpool or Manchester. It depends on what goes tech, and when.

My experience of Flybe was more that there’d be a shrug if a plane went tech, and you’d be on your own.

As for prices, I genuinely don’t see much difference between EasyJet and Loganair, it’s just that EasyJet hide everything as “optional” extras. As above, I do think Loganair would do better from a marketing point of view if they followed that route, but I’m glad we don’t have them doing a Flybe. Flybe staff couldn’t hide their glee if your bag was 3mm bigger than their insane cabin bag size and they got to rinse you for £50. They made Ryanair or WizzAir look ethical.

I’m happy to see easyJet and Loganair co-exist though.

Im not using rose tinted glasses at all.

easy regularly have spare aircraft at Gatwick, Liverpool and Manchester. Liverpool being a major training base (along with Bristol & Luton) along with having a maintenance hanger there and have spare aircraft there.

There is a place for multiple carriers and competition = lower fares, in theory. I've often found if I'm needing to travel with a checked bag, I fly Loganair because of the inclusive allowance, it usually works out cheaper than easyJet. Sometimes.

But we all know that Loganair really need to sort their resillience and tech issues out. This isn't IOM specific, it's network wide for them.

Edited May 1, 2023 by NoTailT

[NoTailT]

1 minute ago, IOM said:

You keep making the same point I get you don’t like Loganair but name a suitable alternative right now they are virtually the only option . And the less said about Flybe the better it was not that long ago you wanted Flybe Mark2 here thank goodness nobody took any notice of that suggestion! I know some posters like to assume I am all for Loganair I am not but unlike most I just don’t see any other viable alternative . 

You keep drumming the same tune. If you actually travelled and experienced the issues as a passenger facing significant delays, regularly, you would see the issue.

It's not an anti-Loganair agenda, it's the state of play right now.

[IOM]

Just now, NoTailT said:

You keep drumming the same tune. If you actually travelled and experienced the issues as a passenger facing significant delays, regularly, you would see the issue.

It's not an anti-Loganair agenda, it's the state of play right now.

If you think I keep drumming the same  tune you need to take a look at yourself ! You really don’t know what you are talking about at times do you ? I travel to and from London quite regularly so don’t lecture me about travel ! Come back to me when you have a feasible alternative plan to the Easyjet Loganair mix we currently have ! 

[mad_manx]

9 hours ago, John Wright said:

It’s not just the low visibility landing resilience, it’s staffing resilience for essential services.

That ranges from ATC to baggage handling and PRM assistance.

I arrived back on Island at 14.00 from LGW. It took 40 minutes to get the ambulift to the plane.

There had been speculation that the plane wouldn’t leave London due to low visibility, but it did. We arrived in sunshine.

Crew were clearly fed up. They were on leg one of a LGW - IoM - LGW - BCN - LGW double rotation.

Then no taxis. Had to phone Telecabs to pick me up.

But Gatwick has its problems. The PRM handler insisted the chair batteries had to be removed. I carry a letter from his senior manager and easyJet saying not necessary, just isolated. It’s happened before!

Isolated batteries. Put chair in its protective carry bag.

Arrived to find protective carry bag removed. Chair wouldn’t start. Someone had detached the connector leads from each battery and from the joystick to the controller box.

Always worth booking a taxi in advance.. Getting a taxi at the airport is almost impossible especially if you are late in  coming out after an Easyjet flight with lots of passengers.  You don't have to worry about a delayed flight either as they will monitor the arrival.  

[NoTailT]

13 minutes ago, IOM said:

If you think I keep drumming the same  tune you need to take a look at yourself ! You really don’t know what you are talking about at times do you ? I travel to and from London quite regularly so don’t lecture me about travel ! Come back to me when you have a feasible alternative plan to the Easyjet Loganair mix we currently have ! 

We know there is no alternative. That is no excuse for poor service, from any airline.

The issues are also a result of Spake & Reynolds. Any airline negotiation for discounts would usually include penalties based on on-time performance. As I understand it, we don't have such with any airline.

They were piss poor negotiators. But again, when they don't have much alternative choice... I'd still love to see seasonal capacity from the likes of Jet2 to here.

Edited May 1, 2023 by NoTailT

[mad_manx]

1 hour ago, Ringy Rose said:

The current setup with two planes and two rotations doesn’t have resilience, but with more rotations you get more aircraft and you’re then in the position of justifying a proper base here, maybe even an hanger, rather than just an outstation and leaving the planes parked overnight in the rain and cold.

EasyJet have stuff go tech all the time too, you just don’t hear about it. So do Emerald, who were using hired-in aircraft on today’s two Dublin rotations.

EasyJet are usually no cheaper than Loganair if you take any sort of luggage. I still think Loganair would promote themselves better if they did follow the EasyJet route of charging baggage extra- especially as not everyone needs to take hold baggage for a night away- but I’m glad they don’t. People think Loganair are expensive when they’re not because they don’t do a low “fare” then charge you £30 for a hold bag and £20 for a cabin bag.

A big chunk of the ticket price is also the £40 airport fee and the £13 departure tax.

Agree ..even the base fare of loganair has luggage included.

And additional bags are only £20 each which is often cheaper than EasyJet. 

With the new cabin luggage restrictions on easyjet you are often restricted to a small underseat  bag ( same size as loganair ) if you don't want to pay for cabin bags .

It's often cheaper to pay for  bag in the hold than to pay for the "cabin bag" in the cabin..

 

 

Edited May 1, 2023 by mad_manx

[IOM]

1 minute ago, NoTailT said:

We know there is no alternative. That is no excuse for poor service, from any airline.

I absolutely agree with you it’s no excuse for poor service that is why if you were to look back at previous posts of mine I have called Loganair out for exactly that .