Airport.

[madmanxpilot]

16 hours ago, NoTailT said:

I respect you a lot and your views but you're just wrong on this.

Let's remember the days of easyJet + Flybe. Flybe didn't go pop because it's IOM routes were losing money, they weren't.

They were flying 4x daily to Liverpool and 4x Daily to Manchester, despite easy as a competitor. Frequency and loco co-existed. The other benefit of course was that if there was an aircraft problem, with such frequencies, Flybe could sub in out of Manchester to fill the void.

Loganair does not have inbuilt resillience. Their spares are based at airports with few routes that impact us. They often come in from Londonderry or Humberside (or maybe it's Teeside, can't remember) with the E Jets to rescue schedules.

Loganair is very good at ensuring meal vouchers etc are dished out, great. But they are terrible at recovering schedules. Maybe their fleet expansion of ATRs will help with this, maybe it will not.

Of course I accept your points, but stand by my view that a frequent service with smaller aircraft is better for connectivity and reliability than a few larger aeroplanes. Don’t let the poor experiences many have had with Loganair get in the way of the general principle. I have no intimate knowledge of the their operation, and haven’t flown with them for a long time, but judging by what you have and others have iterated it sounds like they need to up their game. 

The period that Flybe were operating here with EasyJet worked. but the frequency and variety of routes suffered. It’s a shame that CityWing couldn’t operate in a manner that was comenaurate with best practice, because there was, and still is, a niche in the market for that kind of outfit.

There is no doubt that if EZY weren’t here, Flybe would have operated more services to the London area to places such as Stansted and Luton. They were of course trialled but failed because there was not enough take up, I believe to EZY’s presence on the Gatwick services. EZY are a great airline, I have good mates who work for them, but are they really best for the IOM?. There is a report that Guernsey commissioned into whether LCCs were the right thing for their Island - I have it somewhere and will post it when I find it. It is an interesting read.

Regarding John’s recent woes with the PRM service, I know for a fact that when multiple aircraft arrive at the same time, there can be extensive delays waiting for PRMs to be assisted both on and off the aircraft, not to mention the delivery and removal of bags. I have on more than one occasion been delayed by more than 45 minutes because of one or both. This then impacts the rest of the flying day as that sort of time cannot be easily made up. What happened to John last Saturday as he describes is a strange one - why wasn’t the ambulift  available? Didn’t the the handling agent know that there were PRMs aboard who needed it? It is normal for a movement message to be sent from the departure station detailing and special requirements - it sounds like perhaps this wasn’t sent or acknowledged.

Manx Airlines did work well, and yes the aviation world has changed significantly since those days. Fares are now stripped back and you pay for the extras that were already included in the fares Manx charged. It would be interesting to see what their charges would be using todays models.

 

Edited May 2, 2023 by madmanxpilot

[NoTailT]

Just now, IOM said:

I absolutely agree with you it’s no excuse for poor service that is why if you were to look back at previous posts of mine I have called Loganair out for exactly that . 

I am aware, but you're very quick to focus on the personalities in this thread.

Just read John's own experiences too. Something has to give with air services.

[mad_manx]

12 minutes ago, madmanxpilot said:

Of course I accept your points, but stand by my view that a frequent service with smaller aircraft is better for connectivity and reliability than a few larger aeroplanes. Don’t let the poor experiences many have had with Loganair get in the way of the general principle. I have no intimate knowledge of the their operation, and haven’t flown with them for a long time, but judging by what you have and others have iterated it sounds like they need to up their game. 

The period that Flybe were operating here with EasyJet worked. but the frequency and variety of routes suffered. It’s a shame that CityWing couldn’t operate in a manner that was comenaurate with best practice, because there was, and still is, a niche in the market for that kind of outfit.

There is no doubt that if EZY weren’t here, Flybe would have operated more services to the London area to places such as Stansted and Luton. They were of course trialled but failed because there was not enough take up, I believe to EZY’s presence on the Gatwick services. EZY are a great airline, I have good mates who work for them, but are they really beat for the IOM?. There is a report that Guernsey commissioned into whether LCCs were the right thing for their Island - I have it somewhere and will post it when I find it. It is an interesting read.

Regarding John’s recent woes with the PRM service, I know for a fact that when multiple aircraft arrive at the same time, there can be extensive delays waiting for PRMs to be assisted both on and off the aircraft, not to mention the delivery and removal of bags. I have on more than one occasion been delayed by more than 45 minutes because of one or both. This then impacts the rat of the flying day as that sort of time cannot be easily made up. What happened to John last Saturday as he describes is a strange one - why wasn’t the ambulift  available? Didn’t the the handling agent know that there were PRMs aboard who needed it? It is normal for a movement message to be sent from the departure station detailing and special requirements - it sounds like perhaps this wasn’t sent or acknowledged.

Manx Airlines did work well, and yes the aviation world has changed significantly since those days. Fares are now stripped back and you pay for the extras that were already included in the fares Manx charged. It would be interesting to see what their charges would be using todays models.

 

I reckon £300 ++  for a return to North of England.  And maybe close to £500 to London (if you account for Inflation)

Edited May 1, 2023 by mad_manx

[madmanxpilot]

44 minutes ago, Ringy Rose said:

I think you’re looking at Flybe with rose-tinted glasses. The frequency was, in theory, better, but when flights weren’t full Flybe had a habit of cancelling to amalgamate two emptier flights together. 

.

In the 13 years I worked for them, I can assure you that was only ever done if an aircraft went tech.

[John Wright]

31 minutes ago, mad_manx said:

Always worth booking a taxi in advance.. Getting a taxi at the airport is almost impossible especially if you are late in  coming out after an Easyjet flight with lots of passengers.  You don't have to worry about a delayed flight either as they will monitor the arrival.  

Hahaha. If only life was that simple!

Id actually taken the car down, paid using RingGo. Paul then wanted to borrow the Discovery and promised to collect me…

[Ringy Rose]

1 hour ago, NoTailT said:

easy regularly have spare aircraft at Gatwick, Liverpool and Manchester.

No, they don’t have spare planes. What they do have is the ability to juggle things around a bit more if it’s a small tech issue. But they don’t have spare aircraft, especially not in the summer, and if the IOM plane goes tech then if it’s not an issue they can sort quickly (allowing them to step aircraft up) then it gets canned.

Easyjet, like all low-cost airlines, sweat their assets. It’s how they make their money.

Edited May 1, 2023 by Ringy Rose

[madmanxpilot]

One addition thing regarding multiple simultaneous arrivals I’ve just remembered, is that back in the day we were asked not to get back to the Island too much ahead of schedule on the final wave so that the handling agent could deal with the bags and PRMs without delay. Having an LGW, BHX, LPL and MAN all pitch up at the same time caused a bit of grief at times, and the folks that had to wait for their assistance the longest always left with bit of a grump on, understandably. 
 

Here is the report relating to Guernsey - page 10 is interesting - last paragraph especially.

 

And perhaps this is what IOM needs for the ATR if they haven’t got one already.

https://www.airport.gg/news/article/step-free-access-aircraft-guernsey-airport

 

[Ringy Rose]

1 hour ago, madmanxpilot said:

Fares are now stripped back and you pay for the extras that were already included in the fares Manx charged. It would be interesting to see what their charges would be using todays models.

Honestly, I’d say on a par with Loganair. Loganair give you a hold bag and a cup of coffee. More than that these days and you’re into Business Class fares, as we see in BA Club Europe.

Loganair are in a tough position, really. They don’t have enough here to justify three planes, so if one goes tech then it’s just tough shit until they fix it. They were going to go 3x daily on the Liverpool and Manchester runs, which would have likely resulted in a third plane here, but then EasyJet appeared on the Manchester and that was that. My recent experience is that a 2h30 delay for a 30 minute flight to Liverpool is really really annoying, especially as it was a result of an ATR72 going tech a few days previous then the replacement ATR42 also going tech, but that Loganair did go fetch a plane from Aberdeen to actually run it. I was mostly annoyed the delay was 2hr30 and not 3hr as UK261 didn’t kick in, but I’ve been on that late Gatwick EasyJet and been two hours late before now.

[Nellie]

43 minutes ago, Ringy Rose said:

No, they don’t have spare planes. What they do have is the ability to juggle things around a bit more if it’s a small tech issue. But they don’t have spare aircraft, especially not in the summer, and if the IOM plane goes tech then if it’s not an issue they can sort quickly (allowing them to step aircraft up) then it gets canned.

Easyjet, like all low-cost airlines, sweat their assets. It’s how they make their money.

You are right, they do have some ability to juggle aircraft. They have done it this evening, as the plane due to fly LGW-IOM-LGW got stuck in Nantes, due to French ATC strike, so they swapped for the aircraft due to fly to Belfast (Source FR24).

However, you are not correct about spare aircraft. They have several 'hot spares' across their major bases (LGW, LTN, MXP, CDG etc) which are crewed and ready to go, each morning. Presumably, they know that each day, it is statistically inevitable that they will have tech issues somewhere across the network and these are available to recover the situation quickly. Whether they deploy such an aircraft to IOM will still depend on other demands and priorities, though! 

[Ringy Rose]

16 minutes ago, Nellie said:

However, you are not correct about spare aircraft. They have several 'hot spares' across their major bases (LGW, LTN, MXP, CDG etc) which are crewed and ready to go, each morning

True, they don’t have very many though. What they normally do is step aircraft up, hoping that the plane which has gone tech/got delayed is available in a few hours. It’s the advantage a big airline has compared to smaller airlines like Loganair, although in turn Loganair won’t be delayed because of an ATC strike elsewhere in Europe.

It’s mostly a shame that the ATR72 is such a notoriously unreliable aircraft. Cheap, but cheap because it’s built badly by the Italians and French.

[NoTailT]

7 minutes ago, Ringy Rose said:

True, they don’t have very many though. What they normally do is step aircraft up, hoping that the plane which has gone tech/got delayed is available in a few hours. It’s the advantage a big airline has compared to smaller airlines like Loganair, although in turn Loganair won’t be delayed because of an ATC strike elsewhere in Europe.

It’s mostly a shame that the ATR72 is such a notoriously unreliable aircraft. Cheap, but cheap because it’s built badly by the Italians and French.

We are stuck with an issue of;

1) No regional capacity competition, where Loganair sits.

2) The Dash8 is no longer in production and - as Flybe mk2 quickly found - the used fleet in Europe is in a very poor state now due to COVID groundings/insolvencies.

I agree with @madmanxpilot wholeheartedly ref Citywing. It was an absolute shame and I have a hope that - in time - as electric propulsion advances itself, that small aircraft flying economically from the Island can be done.

[mad_manx]

13 minutes ago, Ringy Rose said:

True, they don’t have very many though. What they normally do is step aircraft up, hoping that the plane which has gone tech/got delayed is available in a few hours. It’s the advantage a big airline has compared to smaller airlines like Loganair, although in turn Loganair won’t be delayed because of an ATC strike elsewhere in Europe.

It’s mostly a shame that the ATR72 is such a notoriously unreliable aircraft. Cheap, but cheap because it’s built badly by the Italians and French.

I think that happened to me once... EasyJet from LGW went tech after we boarded and about to take off.. We were put on a second aircraft which also went tech 😳 just before takeoff .  Luckily number three was okay 

Edited May 1, 2023 by mad_manx

[Ringy Rose]

6 minutes ago, NoTailT said:

We are stuck with an issue of;

1) No regional capacity competition, where Loganair sits.

2) The Dash8 is no longer in production and - as Flybe mk2 quickly found - the used fleet in Europe is in a very poor state now due to COVID groundings/insolvencies.

Emerald have the same issues- their two Dublin flights today were flown using hired-in aircraft.

Loganair’s Embraer jets don’t have the same reliability issues. The problem is the Embraer jets are not cheap to run, as Flybe v1 proved, and Loganair’s only seat 49 people anyway. As much as anything, the cost of leasing the Embraer 190s sank Flybe v1.

Given Loganair’s bread and butter is short island hops, I’ll bet they hope electric aircraft come on too.

Edited May 1, 2023 by Ringy Rose

[NoTailT]

1 hour ago, Ringy Rose said:

Emerald have the same issues- their two Dublin flights today were flown using hired-in aircraft.

Loganair’s Embraer jets don’t have the same reliability issues. The problem is the Embraer jets are not cheap to run, as Flybe v1 proved, and Loganair’s only seat 49 people anyway. As much as anything, the cost of leasing the Embraer 190s sank Flybe v1.

Given Loganair’s bread and butter is short island hops, I’ll bet they hope electric aircraft come on too.

In my personal view, Emerald was thrust in to operation quickly due to Stobart Air collapse and they've expanded too quickly. There's also a bum fight between Emerald and Stobart for UK ATR crews. I know a few Loganair ones based here moved to Belfast with Emerald. Emerald also doesn't have deep pocket owners, it has me concerned, but I highly doubt Aer Lingus themselves will allow another collapsed regional situation to happen.

There's a big difference between the E135/145 vs the E190 family. The E135/145's are old and uneconomical. But there's lots of spare parts around and they're heavily reliable, hence their frequent use in Africa once they get to a certain age.

I very much look forward to the advancement of electric small aircraft. But I also look at operators like Cape Air in the USA and wonder to myself if we'd be suited by a piston type operator of e.g. the Tecnam P2012's etc for business-focussed routes. Piston because maintenance is a doddle and crew ratings different. It would require some serious intervention from the Airport though to make such routes sustainable. You can all see how busy the likes of Flyprivate with their small G-JAAM is doing with charters nowadays, there is clearly a market for affordable small group charters here too. IF I'm not mistaken, there's also no APD on aircraft of 19 seats or less too.

I've said many times in here, my biggest upset in recent years is that I didn't get to see the BA / Sunair 328 Jets here. They - to me - would be a perfect sized aircraft for the IOM market to various destinations in the UK like Glasgow and Leeds. But nobody is manufacturing aircraft of this size really anymore, other than the unreliable ATR 42's. There is however a program that's been in the works for a couple of years for the Dornier 328 Prop, you can see it at https://www.deutscheaircraft.com/products/d328-eco

Edited May 1, 2023 by NoTailT

[Mercenary]

There is a bit of a phenomena where industry people and fans prefer smaller and more niche equipment with more variety, different design decisions and a larger number of pilots & maintenance teams. 

 

Larger commercial craft of a single variant with low maintenance requirements can be boring but boring is a good thing for everyday passengers.