John Wright Posted May 2, 2023 Share Posted May 2, 2023 44 minutes ago, Nellie said: It's an utter disgrace that DoI and DoE have got themselves locked into a relationship with such a crap airline. Are they locked in with LoganAir? ( other than for PT services ). Nothing to stop any other airline to come along and offer competing services and run LoganAir off. Who do you suggest with the spare planes, slots elsewhere, and deep pockets? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NoTailT Posted May 2, 2023 Share Posted May 2, 2023 (edited) 4 minutes ago, John Wright said: Are they locked in with LoganAir? ( other than for PT services ). Nothing to stop any other airline to come along and offer competing services and run LoganAir off. Who do you suggest with the spare planes, slots elsewhere, and deep pockets? Your good points aside, the airport won't encourage any other airline to compete on routes against Loganair. But we know there's no other regional competition out there as it stands today. Hard to compete when you have one airline paying maybe 50% of listed fees and the other being charged full whack. Easyjet can get away with it because of their capacity based agreement. But if a new miracle regional airline appears, they would start with higher costs here than Loganair. You can see why they do it, but it also makes competition harder. Edited May 2, 2023 by NoTailT Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IOM Posted May 2, 2023 Share Posted May 2, 2023 7 minutes ago, NoTailT said: Your good points aside, the airport won't encourage any other airline to compete on routes against Loganair. But we know there's no other regional competition out there as it stands today. Hard to compete when you have one airline paying maybe 50% of listed fees and the other being charged full whack. Easyjet can get away with it because of their capacity based agreement. But if a new miracle regional airline appears, they would start with higher costs here than Loganair. You can see why they do it, but it also makes competition harder. I am not sure I understand your point . Are you suggesting Loganair should pay 100% of listed fees ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NoTailT Posted May 2, 2023 Share Posted May 2, 2023 8 minutes ago, IOM said: I am not sure I understand your point . Are you suggesting Loganair should pay 100% of listed fees ? No, I'm saying we shouldn't favour one airline over another. If someone is prepared to rent - let's say for argument sakes - my house at full price, why should I let someone stay paying half rent? If a commercial operator says they will operate and are told to pay full fees as someone else is on the route, both carriers should be treated equally in my view. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IOM Posted May 2, 2023 Share Posted May 2, 2023 5 minutes ago, NoTailT said: No, I'm saying we shouldn't favour one airline over another. If someone is prepared to rent - let's say for argument sakes - my house at full price, why should I let someone stay paying half rent? If a commercial operator says they will operate and are told to pay full fees as someone else is on the route, both carriers should be treated equally in my view. Yes but who is the commercial operator who wants to come ? Who are we favouring Loganair for ? I just don’t get your argument the fact is if there were no incentives at all we would likely just be left with EasyJet. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NoTailT Posted May 2, 2023 Share Posted May 2, 2023 12 minutes ago, IOM said: Yes but who is the commercial operator who wants to come ? Who are we favouring Loganair for ? I just don’t get your argument the fact is if there were no incentives at all we would likely just be left with EasyJet. Whilst yes we can be glad that we didn't end up with Flybe mk2, they were put off and Eastern have been put off. Spake had a personal hate for Eastern because they laid him off yonks ago. Whilst no other realistic option exists right now, should one come to exist, the airport won't enable competition. Rightly or wrongly. I also think that all airlines flying here should be held accountable for performance ref punctuality. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IOM Posted May 2, 2023 Share Posted May 2, 2023 5 minutes ago, NoTailT said: Whilst yes we can be glad that we didn't end up with Flybe mk2, they were put off and Eastern have been put off. Spake had a personal hate for Eastern because they laid him off yonks ago. Whilst no other realistic option exists right now, should one come to exist, the airport won't enable competition. Rightly or wrongly. I also think that all airlines flying here should be held accountable for performance ref punctuality. Maybe there was a reason Flybe mark 2 were put off and people could see what was going to happen . And Eastern were ditched by BACF for Loganair when they were operating London City around 2018 so clearly they had concerns there too or did someone at BACF have a personal vendetta against them as well ? I suspect it less about enabling competition than being confident that the island has an airline that can fulfill its needs . I do complete agree with you about holding airlines to account though . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NoTailT Posted May 2, 2023 Share Posted May 2, 2023 14 minutes ago, IOM said: Maybe there was a reason Flybe mark 2 were put off and people could see what was going to happen . And Eastern were ditched by BACF for Loganair when they were operating London City around 2018 so clearly they had concerns there too or did someone at BACF have a personal vendetta against them as well ? I suspect it less about enabling competition than being confident that the island has an airline that can fulfill its needs . I do complete agree with you about holding airlines to account though . Eastern is different nowadays. They are modernising their fleet and they trundle along ok. What we have at the moment is a half cock openskies. Yes it's openskies, come and fly here freely, but also not because we decide who gets preferential rates and who doesn't. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IOM Posted May 2, 2023 Share Posted May 2, 2023 6 minutes ago, NoTailT said: Eastern is different nowadays. They are modernising their fleet and they trundle along ok. What we have at the moment is a half cock openskies. Yes it's openskies, come and fly here freely, but also not because we decide who gets preferential rates and who doesn't. And do Eastern have slots into Heathrow? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andy Onchan Posted May 2, 2023 Share Posted May 2, 2023 It's all very well hypothesizing over which airline would be best but at the end of the day it all boils down to which airline has the rights at the airports we need connections to/from/with and how often. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andy Onchan Posted May 2, 2023 Share Posted May 2, 2023 1 hour ago, NoTailT said: Hard to compete when you have one airline paying maybe 50% of listed fees and the other being charged full whack. Do you know that for fact? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NoTailT Posted May 2, 2023 Share Posted May 2, 2023 7 minutes ago, Andy Onchan said: Do you know that for fact? Not the 50% but I know that when Flybe mk2 wanted to do Heathrow and Belfast they were told they'd have to pay listed fees as they were already incentivising Loganair and Emerald (hadn't been announced to BHD at this point but was agreed and awaiting new aircraft on UK licence). The same happened to Eastern when they wanted to operate Manchester. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NoTailT Posted May 2, 2023 Share Posted May 2, 2023 (edited) 20 minutes ago, IOM said: And do Eastern have slots into Heathrow? Technically no and technically nor did Loganair until very recently, which was a benefit of slots being released from routes to Russia. Eastern - like Loganair - had been operating on slots donated/leased to them by BA in recent times. BA is still in a position to lease out slots due to its own problems now, not covid. You always manage to direct this thread to an airline comparison when the reality is that at the core, the operation of the airport and how it is run is broken. The underwriting deals to Loganair, the dodgy ettyl fiasco, Spake and Reynolds created an no good for business attitude at the airport and it isn't improving with Cobb. Edited May 2, 2023 by NoTailT 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NoTailT Posted May 2, 2023 Share Posted May 2, 2023 You can laugh emoji all you like @IOM People don't take you seriously here and they don't on the pilots forum either. Openskies should be just that. It isn't for unqualified civil servants to decide on cutting deals for one airline but not another. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IOM Posted May 2, 2023 Share Posted May 2, 2023 2 minutes ago, NoTailT said: Not the 50% but I know that when Flybe mk2 wanted to do Heathrow and Belfast they were told they'd have to pay listed fees as they were already incentivising Loganair and Emerald (hadn't been announced to BHD at this point but was agreed and awaiting new aircraft on UK licence). The same happened to Eastern when they wanted to operate Manchester. So you honestly think Flybe Mark 2 would have set up a hub to serve London City / London Heathrow/ Manchester/Liverpool Birmingham and Edinburgh? Loganair are the only credible player at the moment to operate what the island needs alongside EasyJet. Sorry I cannot believe you are still using the Flybe argument from last year they were proven very quickly to not be credible reduced fees or not ! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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