Airport.

[Andy Onchan]

9 minutes ago, NoTailT said:

Technically no and technically nor did Loganair until very recently, which was a benefit of slots being released from routes to Russia.

Eastern - like Loganair - had been operating on slots donated/leased to them by BA in recent times. BA is still in a position to lease out slots due to its own problems now, not covid.

You always manage to direct this thread to an airline comparison when the reality is that at the core, the operation of the airport and how it is run is broken.

The underwriting deals to Loganair, the dodgy ettyl fiasco, Spake and Reynolds created an no good for business attitude at the airport and it isn't improving with Cobb.

I thought most of the recent slots came available by courtesy on FlyBe?

[NoTailT]

3 minutes ago, IOM said:

So you honestly think Flybe Mark 2 would have set up a hub to serve London City / London Heathrow/ Manchester/Liverpool Birmingham and Edinburgh? Loganair are the only credible player at the moment to operate what the island needs alongside EasyJet.
 

Sorry I cannot believe you are still using the Flybe argument from last year they were proven very quickly to not be credible reduced fees or not ! 
 

 

I don't get on a plane thinking oh this plane might crash. I certainly don't live thinking the worse might happen, that's paranoia.

At the time, Flybe mk2 were operating legally and wanted to fly to Heathrow and Belfast City. They were told to pay full list fees of charges, whilst we threw millions at an underwrite. They pulled the flights, yes, but how can any operator compete against an underwrite and heavily reduced airport fees?

I - unlike you - take the personalities I.e. Carrier A and Carrier B out of the situation and look at the core of the detail. We either have clear transparent Openskies, or we do not. We can't have a half cooked somewhere in the middle unofficially with not accountability.

[forestboy]

1 hour ago, NoTailT said:

Whilst yes we can be glad that we didn't end up with Flybe mk2, they were put off and Eastern have been put off. Spake had a personal hate for Eastern because they laid him off yonks ago.

Whilst no other realistic option exists right now, should one come to exist, the airport won't enable competition. Rightly or wrongly.

I also think that all airlines flying here should be held accountable for performance ref punctuality.

Eastern were good. 
Used them to Southampton and Newcastle. 

[NoTailT]

2 minutes ago, Andy Onchan said:

I thought most of the recent slots came available by courtesy on FlyBe?

I'd have to read back, but I thought they were grandfathered back to BA. I recall some LHR slots coming free because of e.g. Aeroflot no longer operating there.

[IOM]

2 minutes ago, NoTailT said:

I don't get on a plane thinking oh this plane might crash. I certainly don't live thinking the worse might happen, that's paranoia.

At the time, Flybe mk2 were operating legally and wanted to fly to Heathrow and Belfast City. They were told to pay full list fees of charges, whilst we threw millions at an underwrite. They pulled the flights, yes, but how can any operator compete against an underwrite and heavily reduced airport fees?

I - unlike you - take the personalities I.e. Carrier A and Carrier B out of the situation and look at the core of the detail. We either have clear transparent Openskies, or we do not. We can't have a half cooked somewhere in the middle unofficially with not accountability.

If you want true open skies with literally no incentives at all then that’s fine you can step back and see all that will be left will likely be EasyJet . Forget London City forget Heathrow forget morning flights to Liverpool for patient transfers . 
 

As for your comments on my credibility of course you and others are entitled to your view . I happen to take a pragmatic view if people don’t think that’s serious then fair enough but it’s not going to stop me posting and calling out what in my view at least does not make sense. As regards your point about pilots forum I think you are referring to one poster who during the pandemic insisted I was wrong that we would see Isle of Man flights to either London City or Heathrow . I will leave others to decide who was right there! 

[Nellie]

4 hours ago, Ativa said:

Yep.  Should have just gone to Planes R Us and picked one up.  There must be thousands spare sitting doing nothing on one of the busiest weekends of the year 🙄

Have you got any data to support that, or did you just make it up?

It wasn't Christmas, Easter or Summer. The kids aren't off school. The bank holiday meant there were no business related flights on Monday.

I travelled through both Manchester and Liverpool airports on Saturday. It was a pretty ordinary weekend.

In any event, they should have enough resilience to recover such a situation in less than three days! 

[Ringy Rose]

4 hours ago, NoTailT said:

Your good points aside, the airport won't encourage any other airline to compete on routes against Loganair.

The airport don’t offer discounts to Loganair, though, the handling and departure fee is the publicly advertised £40 per adult. It’s listed in the ticket price.

[Roger Mexico]

4 hours ago, NoTailT said:

[...] I know that when Flybe mk2 wanted to do Heathrow and Belfast they were told they'd have to pay listed fees as they were already incentivising Loganair and Emerald (hadn't been announced to BHD at this point but was agreed and awaiting new aircraft on UK licence).

The same happened to Eastern when they wanted to operate Manchester.

And those are the standard sort of terms that airports have to operate under, based on EU rules.  They are allowed to offer support for new routes (for a limited time), but not for new carriers on existing routes, which all those were.

[NoTailT]

51 minutes ago, Roger Mexico said:

And those are the standard sort of terms that airports have to operate under, based on EU rules.  They are allowed to offer support for new routes (for a limited time), but not for new carriers on existing routes, which all those were.

You're absolutely right. This is done to incentivise fares on new routes. We are also talking about the difference between a privately operated airport and one which is Government run, operated and funded.

However. Liverpool? Manchester? London Heathrow? All proven and existing routes with pax statistics to back them up. They don't- and shouldn't- qualify as new routes because they are not. They were operated by Flybe and imminently after, Loganair.

[NoTailT]

2 hours ago, Ringy Rose said:

The airport don’t offer discounts to Loganair, though, the handling and departure fee is the publicly advertised £40 per adult. It’s listed in the ticket price.

Ok.

Airport fees

Terminal fee £26

prm charge £0.90 per pax for all pax

Security £1.20 per pax

Landing fee £2.50 per pax (total divided based on ATR MTOW)

£30.60 total, plus Menzies fees.

From my experience of fare systems and yield management from EuroManx days, I imagine the Loganair system is loaded with the full fees but the reality very different as incentives usually come in the form of a rebate/agreed reduction.

Let's not forget also the underwrite on the London route separately.

[IOM]

1 hour ago, NoTailT said:

You're absolutely right. This is done to incentivise fares on new routes. We are also talking about the difference between a privately operated airport and one which is Government run, operated and funded.

However. Liverpool? Manchester? London Heathrow? All proven and existing routes with pax statistics to back them up. They don't- and shouldn't- qualify as new routes because they are not. They were operated by Flybe and imminently after, Loganair.

You keep making the same point over and over again . We have already concluded there are no other commercial operators so your argument is futile . I don’t get what you hope to achieve unless you truly believe we hand it all over to EasyJet! 

[NoTailT]

12 minutes ago, IOM said:

You keep making the same point over and over again . We have already concluded there are no other commercial operators so your argument is futile . I don’t get what you hope to achieve unless you truly believe we hand it all over to EasyJet! 

You're a broken record. This isn't about Carrier A vs Carrier B.

It's about the sheet contempt of civil servants pretending to run an airport and negotiating deals with people smarter than them. This is proven by history and events that have happened.

The airport should be outsourced to someone like MAG or another airport operator to be run properly. I think we'd be very surprised by new market entrants if the airport was handled properly.

Edited May 2, 2023 by NoTailT

[IOM]

1 minute ago, NoTailT said:

You're a broken record. This isn't about Carrier A vs Carrier B.

It's about the sheet contempt of civil servants pretending to run an airport and negotiating deals with people smarter than them. This is proven by history and events that have happened.

The airport should be outsourced to someone like MAG or another airport operator to be run properly. I think we'd be very surprised by new market entrants if the airport was handled properly.

I honestly think you sometimes miss where I am coming from . I am not here to hold a view about government I have never sought to really have a view about that . You seem to have a view about contract management and knowledge of I don’t .
 

All I look to do is figure out how we get an air service to support the island so that we can all come and go with a sensible service and right now I have concluded irrespective of any other agendas that the Loganair / EasyJet mix we have it as best we are going to get at the present time . I think that’s where you and I differ I understand you are trying to make a point about government management and that’s fair enough my angle is slightly different. 

[Roger Mexico]

1 hour ago, NoTailT said:

You're absolutely right. This is done to incentivise fares on new routes. We are also talking about the difference between a privately operated airport and one which is Government run, operated and funded.

However. Liverpool? Manchester? London Heathrow? All proven and existing routes with pax statistics to back them up. They don't- and shouldn't- qualify as new routes because they are not. They were operated by Flybe and imminently after, Loganair.

The ownership of the airport is irrelevant - indeed the rules were laid down mainly to restrict publicly-owned (local/regional authority usually) airports from playing favourites with particular airlines. 

What we don't know is what the exact legal framework for any payments/subsidies/underwriting there is for existing arrangements.   We know the one regarding Heathrow (which you could just about pretend was a new route) was time-limited and presumably now lapsed and it could be that there were post-Covid or other exemptions in operation.

[NoTailT]

1 hour ago, Roger Mexico said:

The ownership of the airport is irrelevant - indeed the rules were laid down mainly to restrict publicly-owned (local/regional authority usually) airports from playing favourites with particular airlines. 

What we don't know is what the exact legal framework for any payments/subsidies/underwriting there is for existing arrangements.   We know the one regarding Heathrow (which you could just about pretend was a new route) was time-limited and presumably now lapsed and it could be that there were post-Covid or other exemptions in operation.

I'm sure Gov has tied up and established the vires for whatever has been done.