madmanxpilot Posted October 3, 2023 Share Posted October 3, 2023 (edited) 1 hour ago, Nellie said: 5 hours ago, Roger Mexico said: The AM flight EZY839 which got a direct approach took 54 minutes. The PM flight which had this more lengthy approach took 64 minutes, so, assuming everything else was equal it took 10 minutes. If, as it sounds from what has been said previously, ATC were short staffed (even more than normal) last night, then it is likely that only one controller was on duty. In this situation, they work both tower and approach functions, meaning that radar vectoring is not available. When this happens aircraft must fly ‘procedural approaches’ which sees them flying to the navigation beacon at the airfield before positioning themselves overhead and then flying away from the airport on a prescribed bearing for a set distance then turning back to intercept the ILS. That would add about 10 minutes to a normal radar vectored flight. If we had GPS (RNAV) approaches here, all of that faff wouldn’t be necessary in this situation. Edited October 3, 2023 by madmanxpilot 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IOM Posted October 3, 2023 Share Posted October 3, 2023 5 hours ago, Roger Mexico said: London City (plane went to Southend) ones. I noticed this happened yesterday. At least they diverted to Southend and waited until the incoming passengers had been bussed across so they couid get back to the island . The EasyJet modus operandi would have just been to return to base ! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nellie Posted October 3, 2023 Share Posted October 3, 2023 25 minutes ago, madmanxpilot said: If, as it sounds from what has been said previously, ATC were short staffed (even more than normal) last night, then it is likely that only one controller was on duty. In this situation, they work both tower and approach functions, meaning that radar vectoring is not available. When this happens aircraft must fly ‘procedural approaches’ which sees them flying to the navigation beacon at the airfield before positioning themselves overhead and then flying away from the airport on a prescribed bearing for a set distance then turning back to intercept the ILS. That would add about 10 minutes to a normal radar vectored flight. If we had GPS (RNAV) approaches here, all of that faff wouldn’t be necessary in this situation. That's very interesting and informative. I was on the same flight a couple of weeks ago which flew the same approach, so that suggests the 'one controller' situation may not be a one-off. I wonder, at what point easyJet found out that they weren't going back? Did they know before they left Gatwick? Probably not, as the outbound passengers weren't told until after the inbound flight landed. Did they find out while en route, but choose to continue the flight, and get the inbound passengers to their destination, rather than go back to Gatwick. Did they have enough fuel for that option? Did they land, and then find out? Seems the most likely scenario. The timeline suggests that ATC knew they wouldn't be going back before they landed. One can imagine some heated dialogue between the Airport management and easyJet this morning. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IOM Posted October 3, 2023 Share Posted October 3, 2023 5 hours ago, Roger Mexico said: Maybe they're even trialling that overnight stop that so many posters are demanding! Well if ever they were they are making a right mess of it it does not go out until 10.15am 🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roger Mexico Posted October 3, 2023 Share Posted October 3, 2023 (edited) 20 minutes ago, Nellie said: I wonder, at what point easyJet found out that they weren't going back? Did they know before they left Gatwick? Probably not, as the outbound passengers weren't told until after the inbound flight landed. EasyJet must have know before they left because they would have had to have requested the extension before that. It may be that they hoped that they could just get in and out in the time available or that they calculated it was cheaper putting up one lot of passengers plus crew than two lots of passengers. And they will have a bit more flexibility with crew rosters as various holiday routes are scaled back. Obviously they're not going to tell the passengers this because they were still hoping to turn things round in the time they had and play innocent even if they were caught out. Edited October 3, 2023 by Roger Mexico Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
winnie Posted October 3, 2023 Share Posted October 3, 2023 19 minutes ago, Nellie said: That's very interesting and informative. I was on the same flight a couple of weeks ago which flew the same approach, so that suggests the 'one controller' situation may not be a one-off. I wonder, at what point easyJet found out that they weren't going back? Did they know before they left Gatwick? Probably not, as the outbound passengers weren't told until after the inbound flight landed. Did they find out while en route, but choose to continue the flight, and get the inbound passengers to their destination, rather than go back to Gatwick. Did they have enough fuel for that option? Did they land, and then find out? Seems the most likely scenario. The timeline suggests that ATC knew they wouldn't be going back before they landed. One can imagine some heated dialogue between the Airport management and easyJet this morning. The government need to step in a sort this out as not acceptable. I must give praise to the easyJet staff, who couldn't have done more. They helped load bags onto the bus and had staff on hand to answer questions etc. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
madmanxpilot Posted October 3, 2023 Share Posted October 3, 2023 12 minutes ago, Nellie said: that suggests the 'one controller' situation may not be a one-off. It happens quite regularly. I believe the Airport Director wanted to see this practice become the norm in his previous post with HIAL, providing the controllers with a radar display in the tower so that one person could run the whole show. I understand the current Head of ATC is keen for it to happen here too. However, it is considered by most in the business to be a practice that should only ever be used in exceptional circumstances. It has the potential to overload a single controller who would be potentially be talking and listening to aircraft on two frequencies at the same time. It’s certainly not a step forward in safety terms. 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ringy Rose Posted October 3, 2023 Share Posted October 3, 2023 20 minutes ago, winnie said: The government need to step in a sort this out as not acceptable. I must give praise to the easyJet staff, who couldn't have done more. They helped load bags onto the bus and had staff on hand to answer questions etc. Neither the UK nor the IOM government have any power over EasyJet. The simple truth is that the entire aviation industry is massively short-staffed. It’s run on low wages for years and, after laying everyone off during Covid, they can’t recruit at the price point being offered. EasyJet don’t have any staff on the Isle of Man. They are employed by Menzies. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ringy Rose Posted October 3, 2023 Share Posted October 3, 2023 21 minutes ago, madmanxpilot said: I believe the Airport Director wanted to see this practice become the norm in his previous post with HIAL, providing the controllers with a radar display in the tower so that one person could run the whole show. I understand the current Head of ATC is keen for it to happen here too. Seems to be the direction of travel across the world, we’re seeing similar staffing cuts in ATC in the US too. Purely coincidentally, runway incursions seem to be on the increase in the US… The whole industry’s founded on low wages and now they can’t recruit. I reckon they’re banking on a recession and that staff will come crawling back. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NoTailT Posted October 3, 2023 Share Posted October 3, 2023 55 minutes ago, IOM said: I noticed this happened yesterday. At least they diverted to Southend and waited until the incoming passengers had been bussed across so they couid get back to the island . The EasyJet modus operandi would have just been to return to base ! You do make some silly remarks. it’s one thing a based aircraft here going to London, Southend is often first diversion of choice for many airlines going in to City. If the aircraft is based off-Island and flying here, where do you propose it diverts to? Jurby? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IOM Posted October 3, 2023 Share Posted October 3, 2023 5 minutes ago, NoTailT said: You do make some silly remarks. it’s one thing a based aircraft here going to London, Southend is often first diversion of choice for many airlines going in to City. If the aircraft is based off-Island and flying here, where do you propose it diverts to? Jurby? I think it’s you that is silly or just don’t think it through . Of course I don’t expect them to go to Jurby how utterly ridiculous you really are . My point is the Loganair flight could well have said ‘ can’t get into London City so go straight back to the Isle of Man ‘. It didn’t it went to Southend and waited to bus the passengers across . And sometimes in the past EasyJet could easily have dropped into Liverpool and flown across a few hours later but they rarely ever do . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NoTailT Posted October 3, 2023 Share Posted October 3, 2023 (edited) 7 minutes ago, IOM said: I think it’s you that is silly or just don’t think it through . Of course I don’t expect them to go to Jurby how utterly ridiculous you really are . My point is the Loganair flight could well have said ‘ can’t get into London City so go straight back to the Isle of Man ‘. It didn’t it went to Southend and waited to bus the passengers across . And sometimes in the past EasyJet could easily have dropped into Liverpool and flown across a few hours later but they rarely ever do . I think you should find a thread to comment on that you actually know something about. Southend is a commonly used diversion Airport for London City. Has been for a long time. Both Loganair and easyJet have in the past diverted to Liverpool to continue their journey here, but it depends how long the foreseen closure of the runway is. Too many factors to consider; crew duty, remaining schedule, handling availability and more. When considering diversion options when flying to the Isle of Man, return to base is always going to be the preferred option for any airline. Your point scoring airline vs airline is getting a bit ridiculous. Edited October 3, 2023 by NoTailT Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
philwebs Posted October 3, 2023 Share Posted October 3, 2023 Question to madmanxpilot. Is ADS-B on a computer used at Ronaldsway? www.flightradar24.com/53.66,-3.94/8 I can see aircraft movements and based on this I could probably vector them in. I would not see non ADS-B aircraft. Would it be a good backup option, with maybe a receiver on the roof. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IOM Posted October 3, 2023 Share Posted October 3, 2023 4 minutes ago, NoTailT said: I think you should find a thread to comment on that you actually know something about. Southend is a commonly used diversion Airport for London City. Has been for a long time. Both Loganair and easyJet have in the past diverted to Liverpool to continue their journey here, but it depends how long the foreseen closure of the runway is. Too many factors to consider; crew duty, remaining schedule, handling availability and more. When considering diversion options when flying to the Isle of Man, return to base is always going to be the preferred option for any airline. Your point scoring airline vs airline is getting a bit ridiculous. Well I happen to think I do know something about these issues and others on here also agree but of course you are entitled to your opinion. If you bothered to look at my posts you would see that times and where relevant I am equally critical of Loganair. However right now EasyJet are not providing a satisfactory service and I and many others are calling that out something you never refer to but readily do if Loganair have a problem ….. maybe you should look at your own bias . If you also bothered to read what I say you would see that I actually think is there is a role for a low cost provider ( whoever that is ) supported by more frequent services of a smaller provider (whoever that is ) . I am still waiting to hear from you what you think the right approach is rather than just making stupid remarks at my comments! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NoTailT Posted October 3, 2023 Share Posted October 3, 2023 5 minutes ago, IOM said: Well I happen to think I do know something about these issues and others on here also agree but of course you are entitled to your opinion. If you bothered to look at my posts you would see that times and where relevant I am equally critical of Loganair. However right now EasyJet are not providing a satisfactory service and I and many others are calling that out something you never refer to but readily do if Loganair have a problem ….. maybe you should look at your own bias . If you also bothered to read what I say you would see that I actually think is there is a role for a low cost provider ( whoever that is ) supported by more frequent services of a smaller provider (whoever that is ) . I am still waiting to hear from you what you think the right approach is rather than just making stupid remarks at my comments! No, what you actually seek to do is jab easyJet and then throw a line about Loganair when called out about it, it’s tiring. Yes: there is a problem. That problem is industry wide staff shortages at airlines and airports. Look at easyJet Manchester on Sunday evening. Delayed over an hour. Why? ATC delays in Italy. Perfectly on time all day on its routes, shafted by systematic staff shortages for ATC, airports and airlines Europe-wide. There is no easy fix. Your reference to a Loganair diversion to Southend vs easyJet returning to e.g, Gatwick was frankly stupid. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.